Natron code depends on libraries supplied by the operating system. Those libraries get updated. At some point Natron won’t be compatible with current libraries. Then there are security updates. Then there is coding and packaging for different operating systems. So it’s not just a case of crowd funding a new feature and then all is good.
@devernay said Natron needs a new maintainer. The “maintainer” is the head developer of a project who gets to call the shots as to what happens next.
Free/libre software such as Natron doesn’t just automagically write itself, maintain itself, and add new features to itself. Free/libre software is the result of individual persons choosing to devote their time and energy to a particular project. Crowd funding also doesn’t happen without individual persons devoting their time and effort.
If unhappy Fusion users really do want to switch to Natron, perhaps they could organize an effort to find a new Natron maintainer and also organize crowd funding as a way to compensate that person for the time it will take to get up to speed on the current Natron code base and then add the new features that the Fusion folks want.
Searching coders who have the skills and are motivated to code on Natron.
Get a maintainer.
Setting goals, timelines and financing options.
I can imagine to contribute work/time in administrative and organisation for such a task.
A bit lost in where to start with findig these people… (maybe the start was this forum topic
I don’t know how other projects that have had to find new maintainers managed to do so, but I do know it happens fairly often.
That link you provided has some nice information and ideas - it’s sad that Natron was sort of left in the lurch.
Maybe places like the pixls.us lounge, stackexchange, and reddit might be places to post for general information, in the process spreading the word that there is a desire to crowdfund and a need for a new maintainer? And maybe the fusion forum?
Edit: the link you provided has a way more complete and really nice list of places to post and things to do. But the pixls lounge isn’t on the list!
@devernay: You were the core-developer of Natron with the most commits. Can you tell us what we are looking for? A 100% software developer in C++ with experience in crossplatform multimedia applications? Or even 2 -5 coders?
I am thinking about following scenario: Forking the Github repo, opening a Patreon page, make some kind of bounty program, contact middle scale studios to ask for commitment. Maybe even asking foundations. Figure out how to handle taxes, loans etc. when its an international opensource project.
The thing is, how would I know if the coder is good and understands what he is doing? I am not a coder I could not control if the commit is god or bad
There must be a way to bring Natron back to life, since we have Krita and Blender on Linux its not possible that there is only Nuke for FX and composing… just thinking loud here…
Heh, I was just about to suggest that we start by contacting the current developers before doing anything but you preempted me.
For the others in this thread, I would strongly prefer that any takeover obtain the blessing of the current dev team. It’s only polite, and they can give help on what parts of the code to look at. In addition to that, they could also transfer ownership of things like github organizations and domains if they so wanted instead of the new team having to build all that from scratch.
Generally for an open project, you can find people who have already works on the project and sponsor their time. That will be much more efficient than bringing in someone new to the project. It also makes it more about raising funds than finding talent.
I’d wager that raising funds will prove more difficult than finding people to work on it.
Also the project isn’t completely dead, @devernay is still fixing some bugs.
The Blender Foundation may also be a good place to speak up about the situation.
I know Blender has its own compositing engine, but not everybody likes it and the Blender team (including Ton Rosendaal) will certainly understand this.
If there is enough funding, the Natron maintainer could even be hired and hosted by the Blender Foundation. Blender has a good 3D space, a good tracker (which we use in Natron), and is well maintained. Natron could be more tightly integrated with Blender for 3D stuff, while remaining a separate app for pure 2D compositing.
We had a huge issue with this project, which is that we never were able to attract developers to work on the project, apart for contributors to small things like PyPlugs and Shadertoys. Natron was started by Alexandre and me, and then Ole-André joined for a short period as a paid developer, but the team never grew bigger. I do not know what we did wrong (or did not do) to get to this situation. Today, Alexandre is working on a commercial software (I do not know anything about it) and does not want to work on the open source project anymore, and I have a more-than-full-time daily job and a family and cannot dedicate any more time to Natron.
I am a pro vfx artist and I am with Nuke for a long time.
I just tried Natron, and I must say I was really positively surprised how much it was quite extensively featured and responsive.
It is such a shame that such a nice opensource project can’t find any new (talented) devs from this 7 billion people planet.
Most of it (the basis) is here, it just needs:
-to be polished a bit everywhere (that needs devs and a passionate community to flag any stuff on a forum)
-some tools to be improved like the roto node options and the gmic support
-a Qt5 (and clean fusion theme please) port
-to use the same channel system than nuke
-the 3D space indeed
…but it is sooo close to be good enough for small studios
If you where doing a crowd founding, just to continue the dev, I would support for sure.
Maybe ask for a featuring on the Blender website ?
@devernay - if you had a moment would you be able to possibly put together what some simple requirements for a new maintainer might be (technically)? It can be short and something that we can use as part of reaching out.
Should we start a larger, coordinated push to a wider audience? If we can coordinate something we might get a better chance of someone stepping up.
Would it be possible to create particle simulator like this so that you would able to create vector fields and manipulate simulation within Natron however you like ?
Crosspost: Might also be worthwhile to look at the blender development fund. Being able to support developers part-/fulltime is a great incentive to get new developers and keep active ones.
I’m sure Ton Rosendaal (blender chairman) can provide some needed info on this.
The truth is that Natron is a big project, not something you simply dive into on a lazy sunday.
Things like kickstarter are great to reach a specific development target, but a steady monthly income can do much more.
Ps: to make it easier for new devs to come and help, perhaps a list of small features/changes/bugs can be created.
New people can do those changes without having to dive into the entire codebase.
Fun low hanging fruit
I just joined the forum to voice my support for @magdesign’s idea. I think it’s great to take advantage of the frustration that some have of Blackmagicdesign’s plans with Fusion. It might just be the kick needed to get Natron back on track and to at least get funds to continue the much needed development for Natron. I just started with Natron so I was a bit disappointed in hearing that it has stalled but this possible opportunity is exciting. I don’t know anything about programming but if there is ever a well organized crowdfunding project I would most definitely donate.
I saw devernay’s suggestion here:
Just my two cents but I would hate it if Natron’s future is stuck as 2D compositing. I think most people are hoping to see Natron continue development to finally include 3D capabilities. If the future is that Natron is somehow integrated into Blender I would find that very disappointing especially seeing that a big appeal of Natron is how closely it resembles Nuke in interface and workflow. Blender is its own unique beast entirely and should be kept that way. As @keopsys said in this thread Natron is “sooo close to be good enough for small studios.” To be so close yet it end up being limited to just 2D would be such a grand shame.
So in the list of aims at bringing Natron back to life I would hope that chief among them would be to keep Natron as its own app so that it can continue development (e.g. 3D workspace) to become a serious option for those wanting to do compositing for real.
I am looking to get out of my current Nuke workflow, mostly because of the licencing. I would support Natron via Patreon with a small monthly fee, if it helps. It would be great to still have an OS alternative to Nuke for both fun and profit. I don’t know of the details but having it maintained by the Blender foundation doesn’t sound a bad idea!
@devernay a patron is setup would donations help you spend more time on natron?
If so, please setup a patron! Eventhough i have never used natron i would be willing to donate monthly to help support developement instead of natron dying a slow death
Blender compositing is also node based as im sure you know.
I dont really see how (for example) swapping out blenders compositor with natron would change either blender or natrons nature that much.
Ofcourse i dont really see that happening, blenders compositor needs love for sure, but it also doesnt have really active developers atm. (Opensource compositor curse?) Blender does however have funds to support a fulltime developer…
I might be naive, but if we can motivate 1% of all these people downloaded Natron, around 300 people, to donate 20.-- every month (thats what you would pay for a single Adobe product) we could raise 6’000.-- a month.
Could be a starting point to attract existing and new developers to work on the project.
With its own unique workflow. As I said, a big appeal of Natron is that it resembles Nuke quite a lot.
The suggestion to limit Natron to just 2D so that Natron could be integrated with Blender would render Natron as a standalone app essentially useless. If there is any aim at keeping Natron alive at all it should be to continue development and growth of Natron as a standalone app which would include one day its own 3D workspace. That’s what the majority of Natron supporters are hoping for.
By the way, I support your idea of a patron. I would support any kind of fund raising if the aim is to put Natron back on track of growth and development as its own app.
Unfortunately, averaging monthly donation doesn’t work in the real life. My educated guess is that getting 300 people to pay 20 euro a month will be some serious example of black magic at work.
If you can get 300 people to donate, 80% will be paying 2 to 5 euro, 15% smth like 10 euro, and then the last 5% will pay 20 or more a month. That’s a good start, but not quite viable in the long run. And getting to even those 300 will take time.
I’ve yet to see someone in the free/libre software development to make a living off Patreon.
Blender partially relies on Blender Cloud subscriptions and store sales for its income. Krita sells its version on Windows Store and Steam and also has a store for selling courses. Neither would manage to get by just off donations. And they’ve been a lot longer around, with much larger following.
Above all, this project would need a team, where different people would take care of things they are most qualified to do. I’m sure the community has people who can do marketing and training. But right now there isn’t even an active developer maintaining Natron, and without at least one developer it all falls apart. (Which is pretty much the reason I asked Alexandre and Fred about ‘low-hanging fruit’ tasks to pick for someone to start getting involved, when I interviewed them.)
I think it’s great to take advantage of the frustration that some have of Blackmagicdesign’s plans with Fusion. It might just be the kick needed to get Natron back on track and to at least get funds to continue the much needed development for Natron. I just started with Natron so I was a bit disappointed in hearing that it has stalled but this possible opportunity is exciting. I don’t know anything about programming but if there is ever a well organized crowdfunding project I would most definitely donate.
I would support any kind of fund raising if the aim is to put Natron back on track of growth and development as its own app.