Darktable new user feedback

Hi, I’m a new user to Darktable and absolutely love the program. Not sure how to get in touch directly with the developers so am hoping they might see it here. It has fast become my favourite RAW editor, so if this comes across a little negative don’t take it the wrong way - the list of positives is far, its just that nothing needs to be said about them. Here’s a few questions and ideas after a couple weeks of use.

  1. When you toggle the white balance on and off it switches from the green dominant sensor to your current settings. It would be nice to have an option to toggle between your current adjustments, and the chosen preset (eg. camera). Perhaps one of the presets can be ‘custom’, so you can go back and forth between ‘custom’ and ‘camera’?

  2. It is very hard to drag the tiny sliders perfectly horizontal whilst looking at the image and not the sliders. This sometimes causes the wrong slider to start dragging. For instance in white balance I will be dragging the red channel across, then suddenly there will be a huge shift in green, as my dragging has gone down too far and hit that slider bar. THIS IS INFURIATING, and happens often, in every module. Can you please make it so that once a slider is being dragged, none of the others can be changed until you unclick the mouse? So only one slider can be changed at a time.

  3. I love the inclusion of a waveform monitor, but think it can be improved. Can there be more clearly defined lines showing the clipping point of whites and blacks? At the moment it is a grey background, with black lines all the way up. Perhaps white or colorued lines instead of black could signify the clipping points, so its easy to differentiate, and see when information has crossed it?

  4. The linear histogram in RawTherapee is WAY easier to read, for a few reasons. Firstly, the ability to show/hide RAW histogram is a great feature, as the RAW histogram is often more difficult to read than the other (information spread in more unusual places). (I don’t know what that other is - but in RT it moves with the adjustments, while the RAW histogram doesn’t). Secondly, the ability to turn the grey and yellow lines on and off in RT is a great feature, because they often just get in the way when looking for where information in each channel begins and ends. Thirdly, displaying the R,G,B channels as lines in RT, as opposed to blocks of colour, also makes them easier to read. Fourthly, and most important of all, it would be great if we could change the display size of the histogram box in Darktable, or at least make it bigger, for at the moment it is too tiny. With all of the above, as things stand I can hardly see the clipping points of each channel in the histogram, which largely negates its usefulness.

  5. Is there a way to save favourite modules? If I click on the menu in bottom right corner and selected a new subset such as ‘default’ or ‘no module’, all my favourites disappear. The only way to get them back is to add them one by one. Is there a way to save those favourites so I can get them back with one click only?

  6. There are a few things that would make it easier to navigate. For instance ‘Basic Adjustments’ has an exposure slider, as does the ‘exposure’ module. The ‘Basic Adjustments’ has a vibrance slider, as does the ‘Vibrance’ module. The ‘exposure’ module’ and ‘basic adjustments’ both seem to have a black point adjustment as well. Perhaps they work differently, but it would be much simpler to have them all in one place, so you don’t have to go back and forth trying to see if you’ve adjusted the black point in two different areas. ‘Tone Curve’ and ‘RGB Curves’ module also seem to work the same, so why can’t the RGB independent channels just be included in the ’Tone Curve’ module as LAB independent channels are? (I would suggest ‘Base Curve’ and ‘Tone Curve’ could also be combined, as they both essentially just adding a tonal curve, although I can see how they might serve two different purposes).

  7. On curves, it is annoying that I can’t just click on the line/curve and add a point. If I click it does nothing. I have to actually move the curve for a point to be added. But many times I just want to pin an area so I can move curves around it. To do that I just want to click on the line but not move it. Please add this functionality.

  8. A specific issue. Perhaps there is a way to rectify this already. Working with a RAW file I added a Highpass filter. I drew an elliptical mask around the subject. When I chose blend mode ‘normal’ it only effected the correct area inside the mask - but it is the unusable grey. When I chose blend mode ‘linear light’, or ‘overlay’, it is now a nice image, and the sharpening only effects the area inside the mask, yet somehow it completely messed with the background highlights outside the masked area. Why would that be? Also, when I blended in the L channel and tried to take it out of the highlights nothing happened. Yet that masking works in other modules. So what’s going on there? I don’t understand how the sharpening is not effecting the area outside the mask, but somehow the luminance outside the mask is being thrown off, and I don’t understand why it does it for some blend modes but not others.

  9. That reminds me, on the blend masking tool, it is quite annoying how to drag both sliders together one way I have to pull the bottom, but to drag them together the other I have to pull the top. Often I want to go back and forth, yet as soon as I try to move in the opposite direction they break apart and don’t move together. I suggest that one (say the bottom) should be ‘move together linked’ and the other (say the top) should be ‘move apart unlinked’.

Thanks very much for making such a great program, and I hope these suggestions may be given consideration.

Can’t reproduce it here. If I stay clicked on a slider, the focus will not move to another one even if I move the pointer up or down. What OS do you use?

Yes, by ticking favorites in the right menu of any module, or by clicking twice in the “more modules” picker. Favorite modules will appear in the tab with a star icon.

Get used to it, darktable has many modules, many of which have overlapping functionality. Some modules are considered “legacy” and are somewhat deprecated, or have been made redundant but are still available for compatibility and/or creative use cases. In some cases the modules work in different color spaces and/or happen at different stages of the pipeline. I agree that the interface could be clearer about which modules should be prefferred. The workspace presets are a great first step, imho.

Can you show the issue on an example? On a side note, using the contrast equalizer (or local contrast) usually works better for sharpening, as it tends to not produce halos as quickly and produces more natural-looking results.

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Heya @Soupy! Welcome to pixls.us community!

pt 1. Would you look at that! It’s already been taken care of in form of of PR#4676 by @hannoschwalm :slight_smile: it’ll be avail in dt 3.0.2 :slight_smile:

pt 2. Huh… i need to test it, but in the mean time there are other ways, eg scrollwheel on slider to move slier without moving mouse… TBH - i just tested and while I’m keeping the mouse button pressed and I’m dragging the slider it’s still dragging! regardless where I am! Also you can click on the slider and then use arrow keys (press shift to move faster) :slight_smile:

pt 4. There are some movements for that…

pt 5. you can create your own module set but I need to test whether the bug clearing favourites has been dealth with…

pt 6. ughhhhhh… yeah… it’s problematic.

pt 8. this is known effect of clipping applied to image. work is ongoing.

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Point 3. AFAIK the top line is the clipping point. You can change the colors of the lines and background using CSS.

Point 5. You can indeed organise the modules how you like (afaik including your favourites) and then create your own preset.

Point 7. Ctrl-click should add a point to a curve without you having to move the mouse

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Re point 5:

https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/issues/4590

You can create your own presets WITH favourites! That’s even more awesome!

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csponge:

“What OS do you use?”
Mac OS Sierra 10.12.6
I should say, it doesn’t happen every time, but it does happen quite often. Might it have anything to do with mouse pressure?
Edit: Another consideration. It may be happening as the screen says ‘working’ - perhaps the lag time is releasing the mouse click somehow?

"Yes, by ticking favorites in the right menu of any module, or by clicking twice in the “more modules” picker. "
My problem is not making them favourite, but that favourites disappear upon selecting a different subset. Johnny-bit’s response suggest its a known bug.

“Can you show the issue on an example? On a side note, using the contrast equalizer (or local contrast) usually works better for sharpening, as it tends to not produce halos as quickly and produces more natural-looking results.”
I like the contrast equaliser too. I can’t post the full example I was working on as its not my image, but will attach a crop of just the top corner. The mask applied was to the centre of the image and should not have impacted this corner, yet you can easily see the difference. It should be noted I tried to replicate the issue on other pictures and couldn’t. They didn’t have the widespread highlights of this image so perhaps that has something to do with the problem, though I can’t imagine how, given it is outside the mask area.

Left is with high pass, right is without.

Johnny-bit:

“Also you can click on the slider and then use arrow keys (press shift to move faster)”
I quite like this. Could get used to it.

“pt 4. There are some movements for that…”
Movements in program, or something the developers are looking at implementing in future versions?

elstoc:

“Point 3. AFAIK the top line is the clipping point. You can change the colors of the lines and background using CSS.”
I assume the top line means the top line underneath the top border? And therefore the black clipping point is the bottom line above the bottom border? I don’t know CSS.

“Point 5. You can indeed organise the modules how you like (afaik including your favourites) and then create your own preset.”
I will save them as preset and see if that fixes it.

“Point 7. Ctrl-click should add a point to a curve without you having to move the mouse”
Works!

Thanks so much all for the fast replies! Lots of helpful information here.
[ps. if there is a way to multi-quote replies properly, let me know]

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A must read will be this article on what modules to use:

And there is an interesting YouTube life recording on a fast workflow:

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Just select the quote in the original message and a ‘Quote’ button will pop up. Click and it will add the quote to your current reply. You can do this multiple times.

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Regarding this point (and independently of the PR linked by @johnny-bit), one way to go back and forth between any fixed ‘original’ status and your current working version is using snapshots. In this case you would snapshot the ‘camera’ preset to compare with the current adjustments.

Ckickng and dragging a module slider is the worst way to move it. Either hover over it and use your mouse wheel, or right click it, move the mouse laterally, and left click to set it.

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Yep, but with a magic mouse that isnt that easy since you can move your mouse while dragging on the surface.
But this behavior is more acceptable than clicking on the slider first - at least for me :wink:

Ah yes, apple input devices… I’ll bit my tongue :stuck_out_tongue:

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Fantastic article! Will get to the video when I’ve got time.

Question: I’ve been setting my Working Profile to Adobe RGB to match my Output Profile, but based on this article, would it be preferable to set Working Profile to one of the Linear Options?

Good point, I hadn’t been using snapshots. Need to incorporate it into my workflow.

Thanks for the tip!

You should leave the input profile at Standard Input Matrix unless you’ve made an input ICC profile for your camera or you specifically know what you’re doing. Adobe RGB in the input profile is bad news.

My mistake. I meant Working Profile in the Input Profile module. I’ve been using standard colour matrix. Will edit my question for others who see it.

Your working profile should be a wide gamut profile, such as ProPhotoRGB, Linear rec 2020, etc

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If you right click (two-finger trackpad click) on the slider, a lovely ‘adjustment field box’ opens, where the adjustment follows your pointer. If your pointer is near the bottom of the box, you get very fine control, and at the top of the box, very fast control of the slider. Then right click (one finger trackpad click) to set. It is very intuitive and sweet once familiar.

You can also type in an exact value for the slider while the above box is open, then ‘Enter’ to set and close box.

(P.S. I have exactly the same experience as you with adjacent sliders getting ‘caught up’ with a sliding action, unpredictably and annoyingly. This is the only software I have this with, so it is IMO the software and not the OS to blame. But the method I described above makes it a non-issue.)

True. Here is an easy workaround. Touch the slider with the mouse, then use the left/right arrow keys to move it. I prefer that over mouse use.

A high pass filter applied in blend mode normal?

No strange it is grey.

You apply high pass filters using soft light or linear light.

Blending modes do not work the same way in darktable as they do in PS.

It is due to darktable working in linear RGB space, were gray values are lower, about 18% (or whatever you adjusted.

In PS you work usually in AdobeRGB or sRGB that are spaces with a gamma curve applied (from 1.8 to 2.2) and so gray is about 50%, the middle of the histogram.

Blending modes (many of them) are formulated with a 50% gray, and pivot about that value.

If you want blending modes to work more like they do in PS, you have to apply that effect after filmic of base curve. Ideally after gamma compensation (after output profile, but I think you cannot make adjustments after that point).

I have to test it more in depth, but I have the impression that they not work the same way even if applied after the base curve/filmic.

We have talked long about it here:

Yes, there are some interface improvement that can be done. Things we are used to in other programs (metadata info overlay you can activate and deactivate when you view an image full screen, more info about important metadata in the miniatures lightable, name of file, more consistent working of sliders in some modules…)

But right now it is quite usable, once you get used to the interface.
darktable is undergoing a huge change in this version, and will have many changes in future versions to adapt to the change from color LAB centric workflow to linear RGB.

We have to keep in mind that this great software is developed by a small group of enthusiast developers in their spare time.

Thanks to all of them.

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You didn’t understand. Re-read my whole paragraph…

This is not my gripe, though I can see why it would be for some.

It is not just usable, it is outstanding. I said in my first paragraph, “It has fast become my favourite RAW editor.”