Editing moments with darktable

Watching this video really inspired me to try out some old video which was difficult to post process. Would mind if I can share the same edit with the RAW and and the generated XMP file for reference. Some feedback will be useful to correct my post processing learning.

In this case unfortunately not, because this was a contract work, but in itself I can do it in the next ones.

Yes, that is difficult, I only know that the medium grey should be 18.45, contrast 1 and latitude 100% (= completely linear). As for white relative exposure and black relative exposure, I donā€™t know exactly. I guess it depends on the dynamics of your camera. But we can ask @anon41087856 what the ā€œmost neutral settingā€ would be for filmic RGB, where the module is on, but doesnā€™t make any changes to the image at first?

Yes, please. I recommend that you make a post as [Play raw], and you can also name difficulties you are confronted with, so that I and other darktable users can help you.

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Filmic canā€™t have neutral/no-op settings, just because it has a logarithm inside, which doesnā€™t tolerate zeros in RGB values, while its input can be zero. So there is always some lifting to do. The most you could do would be to set contrast = 1, latitude to 100%, scene grey to 18%, scene white to 2.45 EV and scene black toā€¦ -infinite EV.

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You mentioned something like that in your video so I figured as much for the current image. Future RAWā€™s would be nice, but donā€™t feel obliged in any way if you arenā€™t able to for whatever reason!

I also believe it is camera dependent. My Nikon D750 has a very nice dynamic range, and a filmic setting for that one doesnā€™t work too well with my lumix pocket camera.

Curious what AP has to say about it.

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Thanks a lot! This is what I wanted to know. This is a very good setup if I should explain to someone how Filmic works, and they can then visually follow what is happening as changes are made.

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This thread got a bit in-depth :slight_smile:

I tried to explain Filmic RGB to my wife based off of @anon41087856 videos and ended up with ā€œbasically math happens, but instead of uncontrollable curve youā€™ve got values you can control!ā€ :stuck_out_tongue:

Iā€™m no AP, but I think itā€™s not only camera dependent but also scene-dependent. Sameā€™s with tone equalizer. The ā€œfilmic universalā€ settings of setting middle gray to 18.45 and then doing white/black point results in huge differences in same camera depending on scene lighting, contrasts etc.
Additionally - I think that filmic helps me to squeeze most of my cameraā€™s DR by allowing better control. For example - I recently shared this Play Raw:

on base curve I couldnā€™t get jack from it (and scenes from the whole show). My photo group friends using their tools of choice had same problems tooā€¦ However filmic allowed me to do way more pixel pushing and get better DR than I thought possible.

That makes senseā€¦ This combined with your post about not overexposing gives me another idea for a question: if one were to do dumb stuff with partially overexposed image, like trying to bring overall lightness down by sending RGB values into zeroes/negatives - that would make filmic not happy at all, right? Thatā€™s why itā€™s actually better to underexpose a bit, then push raw +1EV and start with filmic @ 18.45% grey?

:cry: Hmmā€¦ Do you think you could make some of your future Editing moments with darktable a Play Raws? Like, at the end add RAW + created XMP here with in playraw tag ad add link to it to your Youtube video description?

Play Raw is great for that! I can attest to that!

TBH - current filmic rgb presets maybe ok-ish, but presets like completelly neutral etc (non DR-based, but rather usage based) would be greatly appreciated!

Yes. :slight_smile:

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It is definitely scene dependent!

My answer was in the context of having a general (or in my case camera specific) neutral starting point.

Iā€™m not all that pleased with the default setting (and the presets) that filmic rgb comes with out-of-the-box as a starting point. This might still be a partial (?) lack of understanding on my side of things and/or the fact that I do start with the exposure module to set the exposure (=set middle grey to 18.45% in filmic).

Iā€™ve tried starting with the neutral settings @s7habo shows in his latest on a handful of images (different dynamic ranges/cameraā€™s) and am liking this starting point much better, even when I compare them to the 18.45% based presets that Iā€™ve experimented with.

And @anon41087856 reply makes clear that we can only approximate some sort of neutral state. I do need to experiment with the values he mentions in combination with my cameraā€™s to see if there is an even better ā€œneutralā€ starting point for my hardware.

But all the above is just a starting point, things absolutely need adjusting from that point on for that specific scene!

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For me, the ideal starting point would be the following:

  1. exposure module with color picker (point and area) for middle gray (linear 18% gray), so that exposure module automatically brightens (or darkens) the image based on the selection.

  2. filmic without medium grey slider (18% should be fixed value) with ā€œneutralā€ position as @anon41087856 mentioned: Contrast 1 Latitude 100% White exposure 2.45 EV and Black exposure -16 EV.

  3. the exposure value from the exposure module can then be added to the white exposure in Filmic to start compressing dynamic range.

This separates exposure from compression logically and makes it much easier to understand what each module does.

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I really like your idea. Especially this part:

It does make more sense logically, although Iā€™m not yet sold on getting rid of the middle grey luminance slider and hardcode it to 18.45%. Maybe after testing/playing around with the neutral setting, be it yours or a adjusted one, for a while I find that using it isnā€™t needed any more. Iā€™m not unquestionably against removing it, by the way.

Setting it to 18.45% by default would be a good start.

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@anon41087856 explained somewhere (here?) that the defaults as of now are a bit better ā€œuxā€ since you start with ok-ish image, but actual good value would be 18.45%, since it makes curve more well behaved if you need tweaking.

Could you get this by using the auto mode of exposureā€¦I would have to see what settings might allow calculation of middle gray at 18.45 %?? Not sure if percentile could be set to approximate this??

I normally use spapseed, what you have shown us is really amazing and now I really want to move to Darktable. Thanks for the effort.

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Nice! Letā€™s start calling it darktable. :wink::slight_smile: (I am not a stickler for such things but some are!)

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New episode: playing with channel mixer :bar_chart:

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Boris in the last edit I see you moved the contrast equalizer. Rational??
Thx

I wanted to have it at the end of the pixelpipe so that no artifacts are created when other modules come after it. I often do this with other modules as well.

For example, color balance module always comes before Filmic. But if I want to make additional contrast or other corrections after Filmic, I move color balance (or new instance) over the Filmic.

Interesting I had not really looked at the order of those two. CB is always tweaked after filmic so its interesting that it executes beforeā€¦.maybe good practice to use CB changes related to WB and color grading in one
instance and contrast and tone ones in a second instanceā€¦ā€¦

Any other re-ordering that you do often or for special circumstances??

Thanks for following up on my questionā€¦

That might be a good idea! See my next comment. :wink:

Itā€™s like cooking, first the water comes and then the noodles. The question is, when does the salt come? You can put salt first in water and then in pasta. Some people think salt should come at the end, otherwise the pasta will be too salty if you put salt at the beginning.

There are also people who break all the rules and put noodles in a pot first and then water. This makes them a little brown, which enhances the taste. It is even possible that they take a completely new path and thus bring completely new tastes into culinary worlds. :grinning:

The cool thing about darktable is that you have many ingredients on the table, which you can combine together.

And even cooler is, if you put them together wrong, you can always undo everything and start over again with a different combination.

At some point you learned what the ingredients do and how to combine them.

Of course it is nice to get some tips from other chefs on how to combine the ingredients well. This is right, and can be a good help in the beginning.

The danger is that you get stuck with these tips and always cook the same recipe.

Be courageous and play around a bit. You will not break anything. At least not what you canā€™t fix quickly. :wink:

Iā€™m definitely ready to help if there are any difficulties. :wink:

And if you find anything new, please let me know! :blush:

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Sure I will ā€¦I did at some point play around with it but I was not sure of the module order and as I have the bad habit of compressing to keep my history compact I had a few times where I moved a module and I was not sure where to put it back to revisit the difference. I guess if I do it enough I will remember where they should beā€¦I think if you hold some thing down you get a pipeline list I will do that and print it off for referenceā€¦I guess I could use duplicates if I am going to mess around with the orderā€¦

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