That RT example looks like, what would a great option for the simple tab of the tone eq…
I also don’t want to have the mask and the different algorithms to be removed, because from time to time that is very helpful.
The tone equalizer in RT reminds me of a zone based system. It would make a nice alternative to Tone Equalizer if it could be incorporated into DT.
I still do the same as I found this iterative method leads eventually to better results. I also see that for some images I prefer ART, but for others DT.
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I’ve been experimenting with some of the tone mappers that were added as CTL tools…There were about 7 converted some time back that you can add including openDRT… For quick edits I love the simple ART output display transform… That plus the tone eq is often enough even for HDR images…
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I am not an expert by any definition, and became curious as to the notion that Art and RT provides simpler and easier way comparing to the DTs Tone Eq. Please correct me if I am wrong, Isn’t that option of simplicity already exist in Tone Eq. If one chooses the “simple tone curve” preset?
Thanks, I’ll check it out more. Usually I use either AutoMatched curves variants or curve in DCP profiles.
I disable those and use one of the CTL…
Thanks, I have all those installed.
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I am not familiar enough with RT to answer that correctly. However, I did just open an image in RT and play with the Tone Equalizer in that and I did not as a new user find it intuitive or simple. But like all programs there is a learning curve and so I am not criticising RT.
What I do love about DT’s tone equalizer is the ability to hover over a region and use the mouse wheel to brighten or darken. This is very user friendly for a beginner. Then more experienced and advanced users can look at all the masking options if they wish.
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I was referring to darktable Tone Equalizer and the preset “simple tone curve”. I was responding to the comments that ART and RT does it easier/simpler. I think darktable “simple tone curve” is as easy and with good results"
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This was discussed before in this thread:
The problem with that old module was that it was very prone to artifacts. I don’t know how ART and RT have mitigated this, but having control over every zone individually while preserving local contrast would be the holy grail of tone equalizers.
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The simple tone curve preset is useful for adding contrast, but you will lose local contrast if you try to reduce contrast or compress tonal ranges.
The other issue with it is that it can still sometimes be hard to have fine control over the tonal region you want to adjust. Because of the way the curve works, you are always adjusting several zones at once. And with low dynamic range images especially, you may only be working with 2-3 zones at best, so you can’t really adjust each of them individually.
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Of course there are limitations in using it. How that compares to RT and ART Tone Equalizer? It has said that it is easier than DT, but doesn’t that also have similar limitations? DT Tone Equalizer it may be hard to master, but once one is comfortable with it, it will produces better results. Watching Boris episode 71 has helped me a lot. Still need to practice more.
You get a color map for the 5 tonal sliders and they are I believe blended via some sort of masking…What is hard to understand or are you using one of the other equalizers?? I’m not being critcal just curious…
In any case this is sort of unintentionally morphing into hijacking this thread my original point was that I think many people assume at first at least that the simple tab in DT works a bit more like the UI of the tone eq in ART, ie a sort of straitforward tweaking of distinct zones… I did comment that I was quite impressed how this very simple and striatforward module was quite effective… It was not a slight or intension to initiate a comparison but for sure people are free to go take a look at how it works for them selves…
Here we can resume the focus on the OP’s question and introduce any tips or insights on using the mask and curve and other settings in the tone eq to best control shadows for DT edits…
Hi Todd, I only had a quick play with RT option and it was no easier in my view than DT’s, but that may be inexperience with RT on my part.
Getting back to the OP question I do often use the simple sliders. First in the advance tab I check the histograms spread and position. Then I go to the simple tab and experiment with sliders to determine what parts of the image are being affected. My logic for this is wanting to do what I will call rolling off the shadows or the highlights to lighten or darken respectively.
I think many people will use the Tone eq in a very basic way in DT so it will be easy. They will if they read a bit adjust the two sliders to center the mask or the auto pickers and then mouse wheel over parts of the image…it’s more so if you go into the weeds with all the other settings and some of that can be the real power by generating a mask that will mesh with the zones you want to manipulate
In the RT version you don’t have all those options. You get a color map with colors mapped to the sliders, so very visually obvious what areas are impacted. Then 2 more controls the pivot which as it is named sets the pivot so shifts what sliders relate to what part of the image is what will be impacted or considered a highlight etc and a second one that visually just blurs this color mask and if the mask is off you can see how the blurring preserves more detail/local contrast…if too strong you might get a halo start to emerge so you just back it off to keep the max detail without inducing a halo…And that’s it and it works pretty well
DT expands a on this with different guided filters and two average versions of those and then no guided filter. The filters can then use one of a few luminance estimators and there are the 4 filter controls for the mask…You can choose as much or as little of this as you like in your workflow and it adds a lot of customization but it also might not get touched by many…
In this respect both programs are true to their philosophy…ART streamlined and DT with a variety of control options
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The idea of colour code regions for few sliders makes me think a topographic map might allow the slider positions to be illustrated on the mask view and perhaps even be an option on the main view.
Have you tried the color look up table module? It gives you the fine control you need.
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Hi @s7habo ! Not sure if that question was addressed to me or not, but I’m a huge fan and user of the Color Lookup Table. What I particularly love about it is that it targets hue, saturation and lightness with the picker, so it’s great for isolating very specific regions of the image. But how the module works exactly is still a mystery to me, especially how it handles transitions with neighbouring colours.
You may remember that I have submitted some feature requests (adapt to scene-referred and adjust sensitivity of the sliders) for the Color Lookup Table, but no dev has so far wanted to jump on them. Another feature I think would be nice is some visual feedback for the area selected. So, when you use the picker, you could have a mask toggle that shows what is selected. Even better would be some adjustment sliders that can fine-tune the selection based on hue, saturation and lightness. But I haven’t formulated the feature request yet.
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I haven’t used ART in a while, but my impression is that it is somewhat easier to use and actually has more fine control compared to the “simple tone curve” preset of DT’s ToneEQ. All the controls are in a single pane, so there are no tabs to switch between.
With ART, you have 5 sliders, and each slider works without adjusting the others, so you essentially have control over 5 zones. You can visualize each zone using the “show tonal map” checkbox. Controlling 5 individual zones in ToneEQ is tricky because the curve is designed for smooth transitions. Also, it’s greyscale mask is arguably less informative than ART’s tonal map.
ART’s “pivot” slider is similar to the “mask exposure compensation” slider in DT, but there is also the “regularization” slider in ART, which affects the smoothness of the transitions between zones. There is no such control in DT with the simple tone curve (but there are lots of controls when using the guided filter).
This is just a comment on the different UX and is not an opinion on the results of each module.
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