Color balance question


(Luis) #21

Yes I have found the RT icc profile for the 5D, I can see only a subtle diference: the dark blues are less dark. I can see it in the nails, and (in other photographies) in the sky.

I also tried all the 37 DPP Profiles! I only can see two effects:

1- Some of them look very very dark
2- All the CNZ*.icc files look the same. The blues are more dark, and the red, and skin colors are only a little bit more yellow

Yes maybe you are right.

Some times I have some trouble for get the right colors in RT. But probably is my camera and the shooting conditions. I started as nature photographer using DPP because DPP got the best colors for my camera, Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom are no the best for Nature photographie.

My question was my surprise about the diference 5000K-4650K

Now the question is clear, more o less…

I like RT and I use RT on PCLinuxOS almost exclusively in the last 3 years. Even for nature photographie :slight_smile:


(Luis) #22

Only one other question, sorry.

Then which .icc profile RT select when I click “Camera profile (auto select)”? Because the 5D icc looks a bit different.


(Morgan Hardwood) #23

@Aleph to be clear, the input profiles in RawTherapee are designed to give accurate colors. This is not the same thing as aesthetically pleasing colors or colors with a certain “look”. “because DPP got the best colors for my camera”, this is likely a result of DPP using a tone curve + a color mapping which gives a certain “look”. You can manually do the same in RawTherapee, then save the settings as a default PP3 for raw files. For example when working with skin one generally wants to smooth-out red splotches and shift reddish colors closer to skin colors (e.g. using the Vibrance - Skin Colors tool https://i.imgur.com/Fk0BgAM.jpg ).

RawTherapee first checks for a DCP input profile when opening a raw. If none exists, it looks for an ICC profile. If that does not exist, it uses hard-coded values from dcraw. As RawTherapee ships both an ICC and DCP input profile for the Canon EOS 5D, it will use the DCP by default. You could select the ICC manually https://i.imgur.com/c3R6Luh.png though it looks almost identical to the DCP.

Do you have a color target like the X-Rite ColorChecker Passport? If so, if you shot it under daylight and tungsten light I could improve the DCP.


(Luis) #24

Yes I did, I have a .pp3 with the hue reds a bit more up in the Lab mode.

Well, thanks, now it’s more clear for me.

Yes I used this tool sometimes.

Unfortunately I have not a color target.

Thank you very much Morgan!


#25

DPP’s available files seem to be Canon’s generic profiles; FA.icc is Faithful AdobeRGB, PS.icc is Portrait sRGB, and so on. If I remember correctly, in daktable they can be made usable via the “unbreak input profile” module. They can be used for some comparisons, but I also wouldn’t bother with them too much.


(John) #26

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh don’t tell any one but adobe dng can be installed and it comes with all of the adobe profiles. Use wine on Linux.

RT has a panel to select the input profile. If not used I suspect it uses the Ufraw technique but am not sure.

John


(Luis) #27

Thank you Ajohn,
I have found the Canon 5D icc profile from Camera Raw or Lightroom 4 (I can’t remember now) in my old Windows partition.

A think that a good solution for my is to use the “default” profile (auto select) and change a bit the reds.


#28

@Aleph A good way to learn about your raw file is to use exiftool or something similar. Other than that, @Morgan_Hardwood pretty much covered everything. A snippet of exiftool output:

WB RGGB Levels As Shot          : 2180 1024 1024 1616
Color Temp As Shot              : 5019
WB RGGB Levels Auto             : 2180 1024 1024 1616
Color Temp Auto                 : 5019
WB RGGB Levels Measured         : 2087 1022 1025 1717
Color Temp Measured             : 4648
WB RGGB Levels Daylight         : 2236 1024 1024 1577
Color Temp Daylight             : 5200
WB RGGB Levels Shade            : 2608 1024 1024 1339
Color Temp Shade                : 7000
WB RGGB Levels Cloudy           : 2427 1024 1024 1450
Color Temp Cloudy               : 6000
WB RGGB Levels Tungsten         : 1570 1024 1024 2399
Color Temp Tungsten             : 3200
WB RGGB Levels Fluorescent      : 1949 1024 1024 2245
Color Temp Fluorescent          : 3763
WB RGGB Levels Kelvin           : 1141 1024 1024 3372
Color Temp Kelvin               : 2400
WB RGGB Levels Flash            : 2497 1024 1024 1438
Color Temp Flash                : 6214
Average Black Level             : 2048 2048 2048 2048
Raw Measured RGGB               : 415520 180628 178529 249230
Per Channel Black Level         : 2047 2047 2048 2048
Normal White Level              : 15165
Specular White Level            : 15677
Linearity Upper Margin          : 10400

This is true, so they aren’t truly neutral or accurate, even though we have a picture profile named neutral.


(Luis) #29

Sorry for my ignorance @afre. This is the exiftool info of the raw file, and now…?:hushed:

AF Area Width                   : 119
AF Area Height                  : 119
AF Area X Positions             : -1043 -499 0 499 1043 499 0 -499 0 -199 0 199
199 0 -199
AF Area Y Positions             : 0 249 445 249 0 -249 -445 -249 0 249 249 249 -
249 -249 -249
AF Points In Focus              : 8
Thumbnail Image Valid Area      : 0 159 7 112
Serial Number Format            : Format 2
Original Decision Data Offset   : 0
Bracket Mode                    : Off
Bracket Value                   : 0
Bracket Shot Number             : 0
Raw Jpg Size                    : Large
Long Exposure Noise Reduction 2 : Off
WB Bracket Mode                 : Off
WB Bracket Value AB             : 0
WB Bracket Value GM             : 0
Lens Model                      : EF24-105mm f/4L IS USM
Internal Serial Number          : E767798
Tone Curve                      : Standard
Sharpness                       : 6
Sharpness Frequency             : n/a
Sensor Red Level                : 0
Sensor Blue Level               : 0
White Balance Red               : 0
White Balance Blue              : 0
Color Temperature               : 5400
Digital Gain                    : 0
WB Shift AB                     : 0
WB Shift GM                     : 0
Measured RGGB                   : 670 1024 1024 653
Sensor Width                    : 4476
Sensor Height                   : 2954
Sensor Left Border              : 100
Sensor Top Border               : 39
Sensor Right Border             : 4467
Sensor Bottom Border            : 2950
Black Mask Left Border          : 0
Black Mask Top Border           : 0
Black Mask Right Border         : 0
Black Mask Bottom Border        : 0
VRD Offset                      : 11774494
Color Data Version              : 1 (1DmkIIN/5D/30D/400D)
WB RGGB Levels As Shot          : 2140 1024 1024 1479
Color Temp As Shot              : 5400
WB RGGB Levels Auto             : 2166 1024 1024 1438
Color Temp Auto                 : 5568
WB RGGB Levels Measured         : 2164 1025 1022 1437
Color Temp Measured             : 5568
WB RGGB Levels Daylight         : 2097 1024 1024 1524
Color Temp Daylight             : 5200
WB RGGB Levels Shade            : 2416 1024 1024 1254
Color Temp Shade                : 7000
WB RGGB Levels Cloudy           : 2260 1024 1024 1376
Color Temp Cloudy               : 6000
WB RGGB Levels Tungsten         : 1516 1067 1067 2541
Color Temp Tungsten             : 3200
WB RGGB Levels Fluorescent      : 1835 1028 1028 2248
Color Temp Fluorescent          : 3748
WB RGGB Levels Kelvin           : 2140 1024 1024 1479
Color Temp Kelvin               : 5400
WB RGGB Levels Flash            : 2411 1024 1024 1339
Color Temp Flash                : 6516
WB RGGB Levels PC1              : 2097 1024 1024 1524
Color Temp PC1                  : 5200
WB RGGB Levels PC2              : 2097 1024 1024 1524
Color Temp PC2                  : 5200
WB RGGB Levels PC3              : 2097 1024 1024 1524
Color Temp PC3                  : 5200
WB RGGB Levels Custom           : 1037 1107 1107 2946
Color Temp Custom               : 2413
Per Channel Black Level         : 128 128 128 128
Flash Output                    : 71%
Flash Battery Level             : 5.16V
Color Temp Flash Data           : 6675
Measured RGGB Data              : 12683 19104 19131 11814
Picture Style User Def          : Standard; Standard; Standard
Picture Style PC                : Standard; Standard; Standard
User Comment                    :
Flashpix Version                : 0100
Color Space                     : Uncalibrated
Exif Image Width                : 4368
Exif Image Height               : 2912
Interoperability Index          : R98 - DCF basic file (sRGB)
Interoperability Version        : 0100
Focal Plane X Resolution        : 3086.925795
Focal Plane Y Resolution        : 3091.295117
Focal Plane Resolution Unit     : inches
Custom Rendered                 : Normal
Exposure Mode                   : Manual
Scene Capture Type              : Standard
Thumbnail Offset                : 76348
Thumbnail Length                : 10665
Photometric Interpretation      : RGB
Samples Per Pixel               : 3
Rows Per Strip                  : 256
Planar Configuration            : Chunky
Strip Offsets                   : 1670660
Strip Byte Counts               : 10103834
CR2 CFA Pattern                 : [Red,Green][Green,Blue]
Raw Image Segmentation          : 1 2238 2238
VRD Version                     : 3.11.0
WB Adj RGGB Levels              : 2140 1024 1024 1479
White Balance Adj               : Shot Settings
WB Adj Color Temp               : 5200
WB Fine Tune Active             : Yes
WB Fine Tune Saturation         : 47
WB Fine Tune Tone               : 206
Raw Color Adj                   : Shot Settings
Raw Custom Saturation           : 0
Raw Custom Tone                 : 0
Raw Brightness Adj              : 0.00
Tone Curve Property             : Shot Settings
Dynamic Range Min               : 0
Dynamic Range Max               : 4095
Tone Curve Active               : Yes
Tone Curve Mode                 : RGB
Brightness Adj                  : 0
Contrast Adj                    : 0
Saturation Adj                  : 96
Color Tone Adj                  : 0
Luminance Curve Points          : (0,0) (255,255)
Luminance Curve Limits          : 255 0 255 0
Tone Curve Interpolation        : Curve
Red Curve Points                : (0,0) (255,255)
Red Curve Limits                : 255 0 255 0
Green Curve Points              : (0,0) (255,255)
Green Curve Limits              : 255 0 255 0
Blue Curve Points               : (0,0) (255,255)
Blue Curve Limits               : 255 0 255 0
RGB Curve Points                : (0,0) (255,255)
RGB Curve Limits                : 255 0 255 0
Crop Active                     : No
Crop Left                       : 0
Crop Top                        : 0
Crop Width                      : 0
Crop Height                     : 0
Sharpness Adj                   : 0
Crop Aspect Ratio               : Free
Constrained Crop Width          : 0
Constrained Crop Height         : 0
Check Mark                      : Clear
Rotation                        : 270
Work Color Space                : sRGB
Picture Style                   : Standard
Is Custom Picture Style         : No
Standard Raw Color Tone         : 0
Standard Raw Saturation         : 2
Standard Raw Contrast           : 1
Standard Raw Linear             : No
Standard Raw Sharpness          : 4
Standard Raw Highlight Point    : 4095
Standard Raw Shadow Point       : 0
Standard Output Highlight Point : 4095
Standard Output Shadow Point    : 0
Portrait Raw Color Tone         : 0
Portrait Raw Saturation         : 0
Portrait Raw Contrast           : 0
Portrait Raw Linear             : No
Portrait Raw Sharpness          : 2
Portrait Raw Highlight Point    : 4095
Portrait Raw Shadow Point       : 0
Portrait Output Highlight Point : 4095
Portrait Output Shadow Point    : 0
Landscape Raw Color Tone        : 0
Landscape Raw Saturation        : 0
Landscape Raw Contrast          : 0
Landscape Raw Linear            : No
Landscape Raw Sharpness         : 4
Landscape Raw Highlight Point   : 4095
Landscape Raw Shadow Point      : 0
Landscape Output Highlight Point: 4095
Landscape Output Shadow Point   : 0
Neutral Raw Color Tone          : 0
Neutral Raw Saturation          : 0
Neutral Raw Contrast            : 0
Neutral Raw Linear              : No
Neutral Raw Sharpness           : 0
Neutral Raw Highlight Point     : 4095
Neutral Raw Shadow Point        : 0
Neutral Output Highlight Point  : 4095
Neutral Output Shadow Point     : 0
Faithful Raw Color Tone         : 0
Faithful Raw Saturation         : 0
Faithful Raw Contrast           : 0
Faithful Raw Linear             : No
Faithful Raw Sharpness          : 0
Faithful Raw Highlight Point    : 4095
Faithful Raw Shadow Point       : 0
Faithful Output Highlight Point : 4095
Faithful Output Shadow Point    : 0
Monochrome Filter Effect        : None
Monochrome Toning Effect        : None
Monochrome Contrast             : 0
Monochrome Linear               : No
Monochrome Sharpness            : 3
Monochrome Raw Highlight Point  : 4095
Monochrome Raw Shadow Point     : 0
Monochrome Output Highlight Point: 4095
Monochrome Output Shadow Point  : 0
Custom Color Tone               : 0
Custom Saturation               : 0
Custom Contrast                 : 0
Custom Linear                   : No
Custom Sharpness                : 0
Custom Raw Highlight Point      : 4095
Custom Raw Shadow Point         : 0
Custom Output Highlight Point   : 4095
Custom Output Shadow Point      : 0
Chrominance Noise Reduction     : 0
Luminance Noise Reduction       : 2
Chrominance NR TIFF JPEG        : 0
Chromatic Aberration On         : No
Distortion Correction On        : No
Peripheral Illumination On      : No
Color Blur                      : No
Chromatic Aberration            : 100%
Distortion Correction           : 100%
Peripheral Illumination         : 100%
Aberration Correction Distance  : 100%
Chromatic Aberration Red        : 0
Chromatic Aberration Blue       : 0
Luminance NR TIFF JPEG          : 0
Auto Lighting Optimizer On      : No
Auto Lighting Optimizer         : n/a
Standard Raw Highlight          : 0
Portrait Raw Highlight          : 0
Landscape Raw Highlight         : 0
Neutral Raw Highlight           : 0
Faithful Raw Highlight          : 0
Monochrome Raw Highlight        : 0
Custom Raw Highlight            : 0
Standard Raw Shadow             : 0
Portrait Raw Shadow             : 0
Landscape Raw Shadow            : 0
Neutral Raw Shadow              : 0
Faithful Raw Shadow             : 0
Monochrome Raw Shadow           : 0
Custom Raw Shadow               : 0
Angle Adj                       : 0
Check Mark 2                    : Clear
Unsharp Mask                    : Off
Standard Unsharp Mask Strength  : 6
Standard Unsharp Mask Fineness  : 7
Standard Unsharp Mask Threshold : 3
Portrait Unsharp Mask Strength  : 2
Portrait Unsharp Mask Fineness  : 7
Portrait Unsharp Mask Threshold : 3
Landscape Unsharp Mask Strength : 4
Landscape Unsharp Mask Fineness : 7
Landscape Unsharp Mask Threshold: 3
Neutra Unsharp Mask Strength    : 0
Neutral Unsharp Mask Fineness   : 7
Neutral Unsharp Mask Threshold  : 3
Faithful Unsharp Mask Strength  : 0
Faithful Unsharp Mask Fineness  : 7
Faithful Unsharp Mask Threshold : 3
Monochrome Unsharp Mask Strength: 3
Monochrome Unsharp Mask Fineness: 7
Monochrome Unsharp Mask Threshold: 3
Custom Unsharp Mask Strength    : 0
Custom Unsharp Mask Fineness    : 7
Custom Unsharp Mask Threshold   : 3
Custom Default Unsharp Strength : 0
Custom Default Unsharp Fineness : 7
Custom Default Unsharp Threshold: 3
Crop Circle Active              : No
Crop Circle X                   : 0
Crop Circle Y                   : 0
Crop Circle Radius              : 0
DLO On                          : No
DLO Setting                     : 0
Aperture                        : 5.6
Drive Mode                      : Single-frame Shooting
File Number                     : 100-2049
Image Size                      : 4368x2912
Lens                            : 24.0 - 105.0 mm
Lens ID                         : Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS
Megapixels                      : 12.7
Preview Image                   : (Binary data 1288735 bytes, use -b option to e
xtract)
Scale Factor To 35 mm Equivalent: 1.0
Shooting Mode                   : Manual
Shutter Speed                   : 1/100
Thumbnail Image                 : (Binary data 10665 bytes, use -b option to ext
ract)
WB RGGB Levels                  : 2140 1024 1024 1479
Blue Balance                    : 1.444336
Circle Of Confusion             : 0.030 mm
Field Of View                   : 22.1 deg
Focal Length                    : 92.0 mm (35 mm equivalent: 92.2 mm)
Hyperfocal Distance             : 50.41 m
Lens                            : 24.0 - 105.0 mm (35 mm equivalent: 24.0 - 105.
2 mm)
Light Value                     : 11.6
Red Balance                     : 2.089844
-- press RETURN --

#30

@Aleph Before answering your question, please refer to Format your code to make it more readable and here.

exiftool is an excellent way to see the metadata of your camera or at least that which the camera decides to reveal. Different raw processors heed different portions of this info. It may also give us a hint on what is baked into the JPEG (or the RAW), if you know what you are looking for.

Regarding your question, you might be interested, for example, in the WB multipliers, the black / white points and the temperature presets of the camera. One thing that can be seen right away is that your camera’s auto WB wanted to be even warmer than your manual temp but sunlight is a bit less. Looks like the flash may have influenced the colors as well.

Another thing to note is the differences in k between camera presets. DPP would correspond to this but RT clearly has another interpretation. You could probably draw some graphs to compare if you really wanted to, but it might be hard to compare since DPP does more stuff to influence the default output than RT. Photography is just a hobby for me, so I might be wrong on a bunch of things, but hope this helped just a bit :slight_smile:.


(Luis) #31

I was looking for something similar but I could not find it. Thanks.

Hard for me. I think the photography will be a hobby for me too :wink:


(Mica) #32

You can see the markdown reference for formatting: http://commonmark.org/help/


(Luis) #33

Thank you @paperdigits


(John) #34

@Aleph Personally what I do in respect to camera profiles is study raw output via ones that are available with camera jpg’s taken with it’s default settings less noise reduction and sharpening etc. Any editor can usually be used to open jpg’s so even the histograms can be compared.

Might seem to be a strange thing to do but camera manufacturers go to an unbelievable amount of trouble to get the best possible jpg’s out of cameras. It will account for metering and sensor characteristics.

As some one may have mentioned it can also be possible to find the icc files in the manufacturers own software. That doesn’t work out well on Nikon - you might say that they produce a fresh one for every shot the camera takes. Due to that it’s not unusual for people to use Nikon’s software for all raw development. Ufraw can be used to mimic the effect but it’s tricky to do in practice. As far as I am aware it’s the only package that offers the extra style of curve panel that is needed.

On Canon their camera profiles used to seriously limit highlights compared with what is available in raw. There is insufficient info about these days to tell if they still do. Adobe standard bought more in but the net effect has to be less contrast in highlights.

Another good source of camera profiles can be Photivo. It’s an unusual package that specialises in exotic filters to some extent and probably wont be everybody’s cup of tea. Not sure where the profiles come from but one I used on an Olympus camera some years ago was way better than any other I could find in a number of respects. Especially white balance.

John


(Luis) #35

I have done a lot of comparisons for select a correct profile. This is a very important thing, aI think, the colors change a lot. However it is very hard to decide wich one is the better.
Photivo maybe has a better red, but the whole image is a little bit grennish in some situations…
The Adobe Camera Standard dcp with the tone curve selected is very pleasant, I can control better the colors posterization, but the blacks are a bit faded.

At the end I think I will stay with the RT auto-select profile (changing a little bit the reds) and compare with others profiles in some situations.


(John) #36

Processing should be capable of boosting the blacks.

:roll_eyes: I’ve tried to explain what is going on in this area several times but often to no avail. These are the gradation curves built into an E-M1

E-M1Gradation

Each of those curves represents a camera profile. Bottom axis is raw stops in, vertical jpg bit depth out. The slope of the line indicates contrast. It always tends to get lower at each end of the brightness range. When a raw file is opened in an editor what is shown is the jpg bit depth after some curve of some sort is applied. The idea of PP is to do what ever you want to do with it and that can include in a simplistic fashion all of the stops in the raw file but the fact that this is more than can be shown on the screen means that contrast in various places on the tone curve need to be changed. That is what things like highlight and shadow recovery actually do.

Can’t understand how you can get posterisation other than having the wrong working profile or working adobe rgb in srgb or simply pushing things a lot further than they can be. aRGB even with the correct equipment is more likely to have that problem sooner.

Personally I feel that you should be ok with any of the adobe profiles other than maybe high key if there is one and it’s better to try and get to grips with pp rather than trying to achieve what you want to do via profiles. The important thing is a camera auto white balance that works reasonably well in most situations. The colour scaling factors used will have an effect on that so in some respects it’s best to dig out the ones that are provided in the manufacturers software but adobe should achieve the same thing. Faithful,natural or neutral may be a good starting point if there are any named like that or standard.

John


(Luis) #37

Maybe the correct word is “oversaturated” I don’t know really.
This happens sometimes, spacially in the red and blue satured colors in low light zones, when I contrast the image with a S curve in “Standard” mode. In “film like” mode the problem dissapear but the colors change…


(Morgan Hardwood) #38

Are you sure about that?

Are you sure about this?

What does that mean?

That is why there are various modes. “Film-like” is also known as “Adobe-like”.

@Aleph if you have any specific issues, post a raw + PP3 + screenshot of the problem, preferably in a new topic if it doesn’t concert the white balance.


(Luis) #39

You are right, we are talking and talking about others themes.

I will do it.