Film vs Digital vs Creativity

I agree with most of the OP, but not that part, because:

(a) I donā€™t think absolute creativity exists. We build on what we have seen before.

(b) I think painting is more creative than photography, because the painter isnā€™t limited by what is in front of her. I canā€™t see how any photography with a camera can be absolute creativity. (So I exclude Man Rayā€™s Rayograms etc.)

(Note: Iā€™m not denying Adamsā€™s creativity, which he combined with vision and technical mastery.)

Film versus digital? For me, in colour, digital provides more creative freedoms than film ever did, because I never mastered the colour film darkroom. But I was more creative (and more satisfied by my creations) with B&W film than I have been with digital colour. One day, Iā€™ll try B&W digital, but Iā€™m almost afraid to.

Personal foibles aside, is digital or film the most creative medium? Which offers the most creative possibilities? I think digital wins that prize.

Digital certainly provides the freedom to iterate due to its accessibility and ability to undo, redo, distort and emulate. Iteration allows one to hone skill, technique, pursue ideas and contemplate creativity.

That is what digital does. It allows one to build on past work easily and effortlessly, compared to our analogue past. There are still challenges but digital photography has come a long way. :seedling:

Historical art is often only about building on the tradition. Which doesnā€™t necessarily mean it was less creative. The avant garde idea is basically modernist if I remember correctly.

Now there are some topics I have first hand knowledge about! Hirst has a proper purpose built factory with lots of employeeā€™s. Many contemporary artists have people who execute their work for them. Think of say Richard Serra, heā€™s not handling those huge bits of steel by himself.

Iā€™m not a huge fan of Hirst but have met him a few times through work. If nothing else heā€™s very serious about art, Iā€™ve only discussed other peoples art with him, he owns shitloads of other peoples ar and is very passionate about it. I like him for brazenly undermining the gallery system by selling his own stuff in bulk (the Sotheby thing) thus forcing galleries to purchase his work to prevent the value of their collections from falling. Its just funny to see these manipulative galleries scrambling to maintain their rigged system. Speaking of creativity.

I found him a nice guy actually despite his reputation. His staff at science did seem a bit afraid of him however.

I think its a mistake to mix up freedom from constraints with creativity. Suggesting that photography is less creative than photography for instance.

I donā€™t doubt it @nosle; it was never a personal thing; I bet C. Ronaldo is also a very nice guyā€¦ I mentioned Hirst as a symbol to try and complement what @isaac was talking about with a modern ā€œcase studyā€, the conversation then derived; re-quoting him:

There is a deal made, I think, once we started to commodify that relationship between creator and audience (and yes, audience is indeed part of the decision process) . On the one hand, you can see how audiences will greatly value creations by individuals who seem gifted in some way at creation. The things they are able to feel when experiencing exquisite creation are valuable to them. It speaks to another part of our human nature, then, when certain individuals began to use their ā€“ at first ā€“ social capital to gain exclusive rights to such creations, and then their physical capital (aka. ā€œmoneyā€) to do the same thing. At these points, the exclusivity of fine creations became tokens of social power, moreso than simply pieces of art.

Now there are some topics I have first hand knowledge about!

Would love to hear more personal stories :slight_smile: and also your take

I think its a mistake to mix up freedom from constraints with creativity. Suggesting that photography is less creative than photography for instance.

+1

Your timing in impeccable. Swedish tv just made the film available online (free). Iā€™ve been wanting to see it for years!

Haha I just mentioned it as it surprised me at the time. I was the youngest and least important person in the room at these meetings but he remembered names and just seemed genuinely interested and non pretentious. Imagine the shock!

The contemporary art gallery world cater to a hyper extreme version of @Isaacā€™s social power token hunters. But it seems itā€™s not cynical, many hyper rich really believe in art but I canā€™t help feeling itā€™s a bit desperate or compensatory. The artist genius myth and and some sort of purity ideal where artists become a channel to ā€˜realā€™ things. Same goes for much normal art appreciation, itā€™s hard to separate learned status seeking from genuine interest. Iā€™m pretty sure itā€™s most often a unholy fusion, I donā€™t mind unholy fusions that much.

Iā€™m one who laments the separation of art and life but also work and life. I find institutions such as museums and galleries problematic in how they help create a distance and the potential for the myths mentioned above. I still love going to museums and galleries as itā€™s the only way of accessing the work.

@isaac do you know if skilled artist/craftsmen were worshiped (broad meaning, think celebrity) in earlier cultures?

Exactly what I was hoping would be the reaction! :smiley:
Thereā€™s lots of room for creativity even if you color (mostly) within those lines.

Ancient cultures melded art, work and life. Science, theology and philosophy werenā€™t in conflict either. Remnants of this are still evident in certain ethnic groups, at least some more than others.

I think the celebrity culture was different back then. It was more about a master crafts person being good at and proud of what he or she did for the community, and what he or she could pass on. Celebrity would stem from people being commissioned or employed to make items of utility and art for the rich and powerful; also for life altering events such as warfare or the changing of regimes. Such artifacts were more likely to be preserved and / or written about, and also looted, (destroyed) and traded.

@elGordo

tamos juntos brother {here socialist emoji without pants}

 
 

Your timing in impeccable. Swedish tv just made the film available online (free). Iā€™ve been wanting to see it for years!

youā€™re going to love it @nosle, heir of the best qualities of slavish schools such as rigour of thought and a way of presenting and engaging the spectator without cheap tricksā€¦ and the portrait of contemporary (rusky) society is, my back hairā€™s standing, demolishingā€¦ good storytelling by any measure =)

 

The artist genius myth and and some sort of purity ideal where artists become a channel to ā€˜realā€™ things.

:+1:

Thatā€™s something that opens yet another front of discussion: what is there of true and what of myth in the romanticised view of an (fine) artist? aka please come back Baudelaire

 

itā€™s hard to separate learned status seeking from genuine interest. Iā€™m pretty sure itā€™s most often a unholy fusion, I donā€™t mind unholy fusions that much.

Jajaja thatā€™s it keep them unholies coming :+1:

Iā€™m one who laments the separation of art and life but also work and life. I find institutions such as museums and galleries problematic in how they help create a distance and the potential for the myths mentioned above. I still love going to museums and galleries as itā€™s the only way of accessing the work.

Weā€™re on the same page :open_book:
Iā€™d like to add that funny enough - in my artist days and - despite being rusty validation machines, I actually had a great time working in/for some museums (galleries, hummm)ā€¦ the good and the bad experiences had always to do with people; sometimes the more square and stale a ā€œtempleā€ was, the ā€œclearerā€ my ā€œfunction/workā€ of putting that to test and exposing it was, loads of fun. Then, in my technical / assistant department days it was a nightmare 'cause it was almost impossible to cut through the ossified BS and the medieval hierarchy and get things done well and promptly, I digress, sorry

 
 

@isaac do you know if skilled artist/craftsmen were worshiped (broad meaning, think celebrity) in earlier cultures?

I think the celebrity culture was different back then. It was more about a master crafts person being good at and proud of what he or she did for the community, and what he or she could pass on. Celebrity would stem from people being commissioned or employed to make items of utility and art for the rich and powerful; also for life altering events such as warfare or the changing of regimes. Such artifacts were more likely to be preserved and / or written about, and also looted, (destroyed) and traded.

@afre You, beast of many namesā€¦ my art history notion is quite faded and more visual that factual by any accountā€¦ Iā€™d like to know if back then the patrons commissioned work considering the name or the quality of the ā€œoutputā€ or something else/mix

a stupid thought just crossed my mind, what if what we consider good is just what we (historically) know

Nevertheless I would love to be able to witness in situ Mr. DaVincciā€™s marzipan castle, jajaj ja
:european_castle: :cake:

I think for many people that is probably true. But then you have to think of the experiences that rip you right out of that cozy little realityā€¦the first time you saw something by Daliā€¦the first time you heard Hendrixā€¦

But first, are you experienced?
Have you ever been experienced?

As we get bombarded and jaded by the sameness of everything today, the life altering experiences that cause us to challenge our ideas of what is good are getting more and more rare.

For juxtaposition, the Proust quote:

The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeing new sights, but in looking with new eyes.

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Sure, we donā€™t have all of history to go by (even if we had a time machine, we wouldnā€™t understand the when we would step into); just fragments that we try to piece together with our own lens and preconceptions, and hopefully sound theory and methodology.

Exactly, important things just wiz by because we arenā€™t looking or donā€™t want to.

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Well, obviously in the deep deep past itā€™s impossible to know. Paleolithic artists, such as those who made the paintings at Lascaux or Chauvin, could possibly have been shamans or elders. However, most all hunter gatherer societies are strictly egalitarian, and use all sorts of leveling methods to ensure that individuals do not get out of place. However, in the Neolithic, with the advent of farming came sedentism and the possibility of producing surplus, which lead to the development of private property. Here we see some art elevating above others. For example at the site of 'Ain Ghazal in central Jordan, the most common art objects are simple animal figurines. And then, buried specially and apart, there were these:

3Louvre

Of course we donā€™t know who made them or why, but clearly these were something very special. And this is ~8200 years ago and before real cities or any Kings or chiefs ever existed. The real roots of social differentiation are in this time. I, and a few others, have argued this in the academic literature (and I wonā€™t rehash it all here), but after this moment, the course was set for social hierarchy, craft specialization, and social inequality.

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Cool. I donā€™t think I saw this the two times I visited the Louvre. Then again, it was a long time agoā€¦

Thereā€™s one in the Louvre, two in the British Museum, and all the rest are in the archaeology museum in Amman. Sometimes they take them around on tour. Definitely worth it to check them out in person if you can!

Please allow me to add: or what we have been taught.

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@isaac

Thanks for the statuteā€™s context and the insights :+1:

 

 

As we get bombarded and jaded by the sameness of everything today, the life altering experiences that cause us to challenge our ideas of what is good are getting more and more rare.

paperdigits:

For juxtaposition, the Proust quote:

The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeing new sights, but in looking with new eyes.

Exactly, important things just wiz by because we arenā€™t looking or donā€™t want to.

quote of quote of quote ā€¦ and then a quote all that once was directly lived has become mere representation - The Society of the Spectacle - Wikipedia << Debordā€™s The Society of the Spectacle

Many years ago a friend of mine talked about a book (pretty sure it was from Burroughs, shamefully Iā€™m talking 'bout aomething I havenā€™t read) where there was a guy whose job was watching multiple tv screens / streams and selecting just the ā€œwowā€ moments that would then channel into a single stream where everything and anything showed was the climaxā€¦ pure entertainment

 

 

a stupid thought just crossed my mind, what if what we consider good is just what we (historically) know

Please allow me to add: or what we have been taught .

@Claes absolut BUT to me itā€™s implicit both as cultural value and as reference contextā€¦ even if someone hadnā€™t the ā€œpriviledgeā€ of access to basic schooling homogenization, when the brain is most soft and deeper the inprint, and is ā€œselft taughtā€ &1 since last breastfed it would end up with a system of values thatā€™s not ā€œout of gamutā€; being the gamut everything we knowā€¦ itā€™s a bit of a loop, thatā€™s what I mean with implicit; hopefully doesnā€™t sound too chajafasm (sorry, out of gamut :stuck_out_tongue: )

&1 thatā€™s another intersting perspectiveā€¦ if you had no contact with other individuals what would you ā€œlearnā€?

Thereā€™s a wonderful film around the subject from one of my favourite (at least pre 2000s) film directors Werner Herzog, I bet youā€™d love it. Is with the incomparable Bruno S (also worth seeing with him Stroszek ) Jeder fĆ¼r sich und Gott gegen alle 1974 ~ Everyone for himself and God against all and which is wrongly titled as The Enigma of Kaspar Hauser .

While Iā€™m at it, let me do-you a bit of vacuum-cleaner sales pitch: Herzogā€™s trilogy of power ( around the figure of crazy Klaus Kinsky) is an UnaMuCiT (unavoidable must cinema thing): Aguirre, Wrath of God 1972 (with a terrific soundtrack from Popol Vuh, just that aloneā€¦), Fitzcarraldo 1982 ( me cool mum took me to the cinema to watch itā€¦ and still today I dream of that boat crossing the mountain; the doc about the making of the film and Herzogā€™s and Kinski love-hate relationship is superb too) and Cobra Verde the weakest of the 3. Donā€™t get me started on his docus, je je ej

 

 
@elGordo

I think for many people that is probably true. But then you have to think of the experiences that rip you right out of that cozy little realityā€¦the first time you saw something by Daliā€¦the first time you heard Hendrixā€¦

A thousand times had I ā€œlistenedā€ Hendrix beforeā€¦ but one winter afternoon I was ridding me bike ( Sweeden) and very loudly listening to a MiniDisc (had the coolest Danish roomate that took vynils from the Library and transfered them to MiniDiscs) with a Hendrix album, I cannot recall (something something experience for sure, je je)ā€¦ all from the sudden the clouds started to move fast, too fast and turn pink and magenta and ever softer and the ground became strangely bumpy yet bland; like a curtain of vivid blur, had to stop, left the bike and just listen while integrating this ā€œnewā€ unseen realityl it was fucking cold but I stood there till the end of the album. Something of sorts happened with Coltrane, man some music you can do but sit and listen, no background sountrack, nuthinā€™ just be there in the momentā€¦ welll that has been me experinece with pop icarus =)

Cloudddsss goo soo fasttt

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ā€¦and you will carry that time in your mind for the rest of your life. Those are the moments that alter your path.

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There was a flash game that I encountered, when flash was starting to become unpopular, that was pure bliss. After playing one sitting of it, it was gone; couldnā€™t find it again! Basically, from what I could remember, it was mesmerizing 8-bit art, animation and audio, with wacky colours and sprites. The screen was divided into quadrants, in each rectangle a separate mini-game with different things happening including the audio, running simultaneously with the rest. I think one was a jump-man / Mario clone, another was a logic puzzle, the third was a connect 4 clone and the last was something else. In that one sitting, I must have played for 1 hour in complete concentration without ā€œdyingā€. After 1 hour, I had the self control to stop. Ahem, I may have spent more than that before this 1-hour-without-dying attempt.

Anyway, this ephemeral, silly-stupid little game captured my imagination and entertainment, despite it being encumbered by a fan spinning flash player with a dozen embeds and ads on a website just as blinding and facepalm inducing. I totally got my fill of analogue nostalgia, digital precision and creative socks being knocked off. Is it mundane or is it genius? You decide or objectively declare!

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Iā€™ve been following this forum for a while although this is my first post here.
I wanted to chime in sooner, but Iā€™m not good at keeping up with the pace of other usersā€™ contributions and thus I delayed.

Just a heads up, this is going to be a long post.

To begin with, I donā€™t think is a matter of film vs digital. Itā€™s a slippery area as when people discuss analog vs digital, most of the time the argument gravitates towards untouched pictures vs retouched. Then, thereā€™s always someone who underlines how photo-retouching is just as old as photography, end of discussion. Whatā€™s overlooked is why retouching exists in the first place. On the one hand, in those years there were many photographers who sought a solution to their lack of painting skills and believed that photography was the solution to their problem, on the other hand, others had to defend their medium from the widespread critique of being a mechanical process, and that ā€œwithout the intervention of the artistā€™s hand thereā€™s no creativityā€ (famous is the harsh review that Baudelaire did in 1859).
The answer to all that was Pictorialism. The problem with that assumption is that not only the critique was based on a comparison between photography and painting (which was, and for many still is, the only paradigm of art), but on top of that, to a specific type of painting. Moreover, what happened at the beginning of the 20th century went completely omitted, and if we can perhaps justify those men because the times werenā€™t right to understand all the implication of what happened then, thereā€™s no justification when someone today adopts the same mentality. The event Iā€™m referring to, that changed forever the way we produce art was the action of a gentleman known under different names: George W. Welch, Bull, Pickens, Rrose Selavy, in one word, Duchamp. When he submitted the urinal to the Independent Artistsā€™ salon in New York (signed as R. Mutt, 1917), he subverted the production of art, shifting the attention to the concept while completely eluding the technĆŖ. What Duchamp did with his work finally freed photography from the burden of the intervention of the authorā€™s hand. Jean Clair in 1977 writes ā€œThe condemnation of photography by Baudelaire could have been word by word taken by those who were indignant that a bottle rack or a urinal were presented in an art exhibition.ā€
What is a photograph in the end if not another form of the Dadaistsā€™ ready-made? A piece of reality taken, from its common context, to a new situation which engenders a new interpretation of the same element. Thatā€™s where the connection between photography and art lies.

Analog and digital are not very dissimilar, they both allow us to manipulate the photograph quite significantly if we want, but the problem is that photography is not painting and itā€™s rather emblematic that nowadays such a misunderstanding still reigns (and thatā€™s how hideous 3D renders end up in photographic contests).
Itā€™s been a matter of discussion here whether the technicality is relevant or not and I believe the answer is rather simple: it doesnā€™t matter. Photographers like Robert Frank, Diane Arbus, Nan Goldin, Daido Moriyama, Mario Giacomelli (with his different take on landscape photography), Urs LĆ¼thi, to name a few, are the perfect example of when the technique becomes irrelevant. For those photographers, itā€™s the very act of taking the photo itself that matters. Things like proper exposure, focus, grain, composition, and so on are secondary if not, in many cases, left to chance.

After those years of liberation from the perimeter defined in the past by the relation with painting, photography had no need to prove anything anymore, therefore photographers were finally independent in their decision to whether focus on the concept or on the aesthetic (which will be revived in the 80s).
What is the situation with creativity today? First off, culturally thereā€™s been a drastic change from the ā€œseeker after intuitive knowledgeā€ as Paul Strand calls it, to the ā€œscientistā€ mind. In other words, humanism and arts give way to the technological.
Our societies are technically oriented and itā€™s the technology that drives politics and economy. What this mindset means for our culture is the fragmentation of tasks and with that of tools and, as a corollary, the loss of responsibility (Jean Francois Lyotard touches on this topic in his book ā€œThe Postmodern Conditionā€).

For creativity, this is the atrophy of our capacity of abstraction. Claude Levi-Strauss in ā€œThe Savage Mindā€ explains how the primitives had to adapt their limited tools to build what they needed: so, the same tools to build, say, a boat today will be used to mold a pipe tomorrow. Nowadays we have a tool for each specific task and we keep creating new tools (and I would definitely add all our smartphone apps in this category). The consequence of all this is that we are narrowing our imagination rather than broadening it as advertisements would have us believe. With the power of abstraction impoverished, our language followed accordingly the same fate and thus words have less symbolic functions than in the primitive societies: fork is to eat, trees to build houses, cow to make milk and so on. Itā€™s a binary condition which reflects the evolution of the web. Social media allow only one direction through the illusion of the mirrored-self. Itā€™s a loop (see Baudrillard, "The Ecstasy of Communication and ā€œSimulacra and Simulationā€), and itā€™s a narcissistic condition in the terms that McLuhan adopts which is not the common understanding of narcissism but rather the concept that our tools are now our extensions, one thing with ourselves, as weā€™ve become incapable of recognizing the image mirrored in the water and thus we fall in love with it as we perceive that figure as other than oneself. In fact, itā€™s normal nowadays to believe that mastering the tool is what makes us creative (or professionals, more in general). How many of us, at least once in our lives, noticed someone with a big camera, lenses, flashes and wondered, even for a moment, ā€œhe/she must be a proā€? In my industry, with software becoming easier (with all the automated tools) and more accessible, itā€™s now also popular the idea that anyone with a computer can create motion graphics works, 3d, graphic design.
The result in the way we experience the web is that whatever we put out there is part of a flow where eventually it becomes hard, if not impossible, to figure the source since, in the relinking and mixing of the original sign, thereā€™s a loss of veracity. Itā€™s indeed a closed system.

Iā€™m convinced that in order to foster our creativity we need to disconnect, we need to stop looking at the myriad of images that internet inundates us with. We need to create time and necessity as nothing creative can happen when we donā€™t have the need to seek. What this something is, first and foremost, is an inner necessity and the way we can help to feed it is by de-limiting our own actions The camera itself provides already some limits for us, we can start from there.

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@Piero_Desopo I am glad that you joined to participate in this thread. Although I am familiar with many of the concepts that have been touched on so far, it is great to have many different people express them in many different ways.

Donā€™t mind if you have more to say. :slight_smile: Mine have been light and fluffy because I choose for them to be that way, but I do like a good long form post. After a rough start, it is great that we are all more engaged in the topic. :sunny: