help - I think I'm allergic to non linux people/photographers

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Hi guys,

How are your relationships to non linux people, especially photographers? Because I think I am developing something linke an allergy against them.

I have two quite close photographer friends (ladies) since many years now, but it looks like our personalities are going into different directions since some time. I met them at some local photographers meetings. During the past years I made something like a career as an open source IT journalist, yet I cannot even make them have a look at open source photography software. Nevertheless they are saying that I want to force them to use open source photography software. But we don’t even talk about this topic any more.
Since one or two years we sometimes fight at our meetings, but mostly not about photography related topics. E.g. yesterday evening. I had been busy during the past weeks and couldn’t come to the meetings. Even though I was the one who introduced them to each other, meanwhile they seem to get on well without me. But yesterday I went to the meeting after several weeks of absence even though I had not slept well and was tired. Well and in the end we had something like a fight about how to solve some issues that I don’twant to explain here in detail. I think they said a ton of bullshit, and then they said that I resist to any kind of advice. On the other hand sometimes they also resist to take advice from me. I was emotionally kind of excited or unstable or frustrated yesterdayevening, but I think furious is not the right word. Well and of course I didn’t sleep well last night again.
I don’t want to loose them as friends, I think they don’t want to loose me either, but I think I don’t need them.

Another example: last year I met three editors from a very important IT magazine, two linux guys and one photography guy, I had successfully finished several projects with them so I decided to finally meet them in person. Of course we talked a lot about linux, opensource, darktable, vkdt and such and the photography guy left the meeting earlier. Some weeks after the meeting the project that we were working on failed.

What are your experiences in this respect?

Thanks in advance for the feedback

Anna

Edit: maybe fighting is not the right word, anyway we disagree about many topics.

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Anna,

I remember your early forum postings. How to find the right import filter settings - #61 by betazoid
Since then you have changed. Perhaps your friends need to make the same journey as you did?

Have fun!
Claes in Lund, Sweden

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There seem to be multiple layers of conflict, so I will try to give a differenciated answer. My background: I am a stage technician who works as an IT admin in a concert house. I started with W95/98/XP until switching to linux and (in private) never looked back. At work, its windows.

My feeling is, there are people who are interested in tinkering with things and people who want things to “just work”. And many tinkerers seem to use linux as it probably gives more freedom to tinker (and many other aspects).
When I tell/show people linux or other open source alternatives (dt vs Lightroom is a classic, LibreOffice vs MS Office another), I get the feeling, people might find it interesting but fear the “cost” of switching . i.e. learning another system.
Learning is fun, but also work and can be exhausting, and I get the feeling, the “just works” fraction tends to stick to what they know to avoid this - and, since many work in a Windows environment at work, have to get used to two systems at once - so why do it, when you get Win “for free”* with every new computer?
*we know it is not, but it often comes pre-installed.

So on a personal level, it sometimes frustrates me when people do not even want to look at what I deem to be the “better” alternative - but the frustration really comes from my expectation/hope that people benefit in the long run and refuse to see the benefit or make the move.
Likewise, those people might feel pushed by me showing them alternatives/refusing to use Google or WhatsApp - because it’s sometimes an effort to simply communicate.
So, both sides feel a bit strained , but both are meaning well.

At work, its similar. We have had a lot of updates and changes recently (all to “better” the situation in the lon run), but collegues are really tired of making updates, adapting - they want it to “just work”.

There is a personal layer in what you wrote, so I can only speculate. I guess, here there might be your personal expectations at play: “We know each other well, why do they not take my advice?” as well as the other side maybe feeling pushed by what you say.
Maybe their choice is to stick with non-OS software, and in the same way you say “I cannot even make them have a look at [it]”, they feel not respected in their choices?

You say “I think I don’t need them” but you do not want to lose them as friends. Might there be - only speculation - a feeling of “I want them to need me” or “I do not want to be irrelevant to them” in your feelings?
Both sides seem the have the feeling “the other one does not take my advice” with a hidden layer of “but I know better” - maybe all three of you could more try to accept that, however well you mean, your advice might simply not work (for whatever reason) for the other side?
How about doing something just for fun and non-photography-related with them? And maybe telling them, how much you value spending time with them and their perspective on things?

About the photography project: You seem to imply that the photography guy leaving early means he was not interested any more and that might have lead to the project failing. Did you talk to the guys about the failure and what you can do better next time? Maybe there are (non)personal reasons you do not know about why the photographer left or why the project did not work out. It might also be completely unrelated.
From my perspective, there is no reason why the next project with them should not be a success.

This is all just from afar, from my perspective, with my experiences, so take it with a grain of salt.
Hope your situation gets better!

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I think they should, but obviously they don’t want to, at least at the moment, and maybe they can’t.

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I am also a diehard Linux enthusiast. But over the years, I have come to realize that it is not my place to “make” others see that Linux is a better way. You can show them, or they can find it on their own, but it is entirely up to them to decide what is best for them, even if they don’t choose what you know is best.

I worked with big UNIX systems for 15 years before Linux ever came to be, so I was chomping at the bit for something like Linux to come along for home PCs. But many others are happy and satisfied with Windows, and it is difficult to change them.

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One cannot force people to be happy.

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Ok, I will try and be a voice of reason here. I love FOSS which is built of passion instead of profit. I love the concept of Linux, but really you guys are talking a language that the average person doesn’t understand. I have switched two of my old computers to Linux Mint. My wife should be a computer crash test dummy and I have put her on a laptop with Linux mint. She checks her emails and facebook and is none the wiser, but when you ask me to compile my own version of darktable on Linux you may as well ask me to solve a rubrics cube in under 12 seconds.

BTW, as a side point my spell check wanted to correct facebook to fakebook. Who said AI is dumb?

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Yes, but conversely, happy people don’t try to force anything on anyone.

I should qualify that I say all this as a Windows user who has occasionally dabbled in attempts at switching to Linux.

On the technical end, the learning curve doesn’t come very easy to me, and so is simply not worth the outcome for me, especially not when I can use the same FOSS on Windows. Romantically, I totally like the idea of FOSS, and I used LO instead of MS Office for the longest time, including all through university. But in my experience it’s just not as reliable, new versions often completely break formatting on old files etc. And there always comes the point when you’re suddenly confronted with the console. Sudo apt get the hell out of here with that console.

There are other, maybe more social reasons for me and I believe many people, to reject Linux and its community, even after repeated attempts in my case. The Linux community is not exactly the most neurotypical community out there. For more neurotypical members of society, Linux as a project and community can be a bit much sometimes.

And that’s a big part for me as well: I wouldn’t want to adjust to a community like Linux. I really don’t need or want to come across as even more of a nerd in front of normal people. As Malcolm’s mother says at one point in the show Malcolm in the Middle: “TV makes you stupid!” And his reply: “No, TV makes you normal!”

Well, Windows makes you normal. Normal is socially desirable and that outweighs any potential benefits of Linux, precisely because I don’t want people, much less potential business partners, to nope out when I’m around.

And some Linux people imho would do well to simply accept those No’s and truly move on from the topic of Linux. I’m saying that because with a few Linux people I’ve met over the years, there’s an air of almost religious proselytizing involved whenever anything touches on Linux.

In that, it’s also a bit like vegan culture. Or like football/soccer culture, if you remember the old skit from Mitchell and Webb.

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Both just take practice. :sunglasses:

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My view / relationship with FOSS (for lack of a better umbrella term) is mixed and somewhat complicated.

I’ve been working on and off with *nix (Solaris, Linux, a very little bit of AIX) since about 1999. Actually, I installed my first Linux distro, the horrific SLS, in about 1992 and for many years was almost entirely FOSS at home. I love the Linux OS experience but I’ve also used Windows throughout that time and for the last 1.5 years have been running on a Windows 11 laptop here at home. I’m a big FOSS fan, but I’m not necessarily an evangelist.

Maybe I’ve just mellowed a bit as I’ve gotten older, but I see Linux / FOSS as an alternative - Sometimes technically superior, but still an alternative that has to pull its weight, as it were, in order to be viable. There’s no doubt that in many ways I believe it’s superior, but sometimes the best product isn’t always the best solution when it comes to the Real World.

I’ve been involved in plenty of (mostly corporate IT) Linux and Windows – and other – integration projects. Linux has consistently shone on the server / back-end, but trying to use it as a customer / public facing front-end was often problematic when all things (good and bad) were taken into account: Customer familiarity, market presence, support, corporate buy-in, interop, third-party support, support (as in, “one neck to choke”), etc. Being monetarily free isn’t an advantage in the slightest, since it’s never free in the end. It’s not that any of these individually were necessarily show-stoppers, but put together the Big Guys usually seemed to offer a total unified solution that was a generally better overall fit (regardless of whether I personally liked it or not).

Now that’s in a corporate / IT context, not the home user. But many of the same factors apply.

Just FTR I’m not a Microsoft fan, nor an Apple fan, nor a Google fan, nor (for that matter) necessarily a Red Hat nor Ubuntu fan. I’m a fan of what works. When something goes south, I’m usually blaming Microsoft (whether it’s their fault or not). It’s just too easy with richly-deserved precedent. :slight_smile: I’m not even absolutely opposed to the subscription paradigm, if it’s worth it. No comment on how many of the current subscriptions are worth it, though…

The FOSS products I like and use, I like and use because they work – Not because they’re free. I’m not invested in the gnu / Hurd / FSF / RMS “everything must be free” mindset. I don’t mind paying for stuff that works and those who create it deserve compensation. Still it’s nice when it works AND it’s free.

However sometimes it doesn’t work for me, although others have other 100% legitimate views. For example, I’m using Affinity Photo, after having used GIMP for years. Despite being a fan, I just got tired of waiting. E.g., NDE is too useful to give up and go back(ward) to GIMP. The ability to run PS-compatible plugins is nice. Even AP’s (far-from-context-aware-fill) inpainting brush has no equivalent in GIMP. One standard reply I’ve heard too often is, “well implement it yourself”, which I find ludicrous honestly. I don’t have the coding skills and given the complexity of modern software – not to mention the (mathematical) complexity in particular of image processing – suggesting that an end user just “implement it themselves” is ridiculously non-thought-out. But to be clear: Kudos to all FOSS developers, no offense intended in any way. That’s just my reality and my choice.

All that to say (more on-topic re: friends than FOSS) – I used to get frustrated when friends “refused” to see the advantages of the FOSS I use and like. But more and more I can see there are multiple legit viewpoints (even if they’re sometimes related to IMO very distasteful upstream entities). IMO, thinking that FOSS is the One and Only True Solution is no less off-base that thinking of proprietary tech in the same light. (BTW, I’m not inferring anyone here said that, just saying…)

So for the time being I’ll stay where I am - A tech mongrel. :slight_smile:

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I’ve “been there” quite often over the years, but I’ve come to realize that since I’m not in their shoes, I can’t know what’s well and truly “best” for them. It’s tempting – I may know technical merits, etc., but I don’t know their brains from the inside out. So ultimately I can’t say with absolute certainty what’s best for them.

But I still try, just the same… :smiley: Especially with my Mac friends. LOL

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Hello @betazoid

Because I think I am developing something link an allergy against them.

Then, I think you are in a big trouble because all photographers I know are not linux users :slight_smile:

Joking aside, at work I run RawTherapee and GIMP on a Windows 10 system.
I work as a plant pathologist and I take thousands of macro pictures every years (plant diseases mostly)
In the recent past, out of curiosity I have bought Photolab 6 and Affinity photo because these 2 commercial softwares are most advanced in terms of features.
However, to tell you the truth, in the end, I have continued using RawTherapee and GIMP most of the time :slight_smile:
Quite likely, I am just too used to these 2 open source softwares which I have started using since pretty much their creation: RawTherapee at the beginning only worked on Windows and GIMP has always been available for Windows as well

People, usually, do NOT like to change their habits especially when they have spent a lot of money on hardware and software. It take years to become proficient in a sector…

It is true that Linux is free of cost but hardware is not :slight_smile:
At work, in the future, in case we might decide to upgrade our hardware (Nikon D850), probably we would opt for the new Nikon z8 with 2 new Z macro lenses.
This means: around 6000 euros and this is just for macro photography stuff…
A new laptop (Intel CPU, 32 gb of RAM, very powerful Nvidia GPU and fast SSD) is another 2000 euros
The cost of the commercial software is pretty low compared to this amount for the hardware (6000 + 2000 euros) :slight_smile:
Affinity and Photolab do not require a monthly subscription, for example.
For macro pictures: Zerene stacker is also permanent as a licence. You can upgrade it for ever without any supplementary cost (it also runs on linux, btw).

In Italy, Windows 11 is usually already installed in a new computer. Unless you opt for an Apple pc of course…
Having Windows already installed on a PC is the primary cause, IMHO, for its success over the years.

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I’ve had similar tribulations with other technological literate leaning friends and photographers, the solution I’ve come up with is we don’t talk about it. It’s like talking politics around the Christmas dinner table. Best to let sleeping dogs lay sometimes if you otherwise value their friendship. Processes and tools for whatever reason tend to become deeply personal to many arts and technical people and any kind of talk around it should be treated like you’re speaking of their sainted grandmother: very gingerly.

Truth be told most people who like your work don’t care how it was made. I don’t even bring it up unless someone asks and then I just give 10,000 foot view kind responses to what tools I use. My work speaks for itself and in the end the tools I like work best for me. It doesn’t matter if I made it with darktable, Lightroom, a film camera or a fork and three potatoes I rigged up into a battery to most people.

Probably the worst I’ve had is a Mac fanatic friend I have who is extremely left leaning. Spends too much time on the Bird App (Twitter), one of those “there are two ideologies: mine and Nazi” kind of people. That is, extremely progressive to nearly Marxist until is until you suggest his favorite fruit themed computer company is too big, acting in consumer unfriendly ways and needs some good old fashioned regulation or oversight. Then he becomes a hard core free market Libtertarian right fast. I’ve never seen anyone else lap up anti-Right to Repair propaganda so hard. At any rate, he thinks my views are dumb, Linux is for people who are cheap or run old crap hardware and Apple can do no wrong. I got him to try darktable once and never heard the end of it. Says he respects my opinions but then puts them down, calls my thinking crap, etc quite a bit on these topics. I swear mental illness is contagious through social media but I digress. I find his friendship valuable so we just don’t talk about that kind of stuff (or politics really) anymore. I’ll show him photos, we’ll talk camera hardware but I don’t dare touch software or operating system preferences with him.

TL;DR: how bad do you want these friends? Sometimes you just have to have boundaries with some people and “don’t go there” on certain topics.

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@lhutton you really understand what I mean.

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Exactly.

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@betazoid Welcome back! :smile_cat:

I am an agreeable person and do not mind those who are not. Perhaps it is because I meet disagreeable people all the time. As @lhutton said, boundaries are important. While no subject is “don’t go there” for me, there comes a point where further “fighting” is meaningless and detrimental.

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It’s only fair to remind myself I’m not immune to being myopic with my views.

That said, to clarify my earlier (semi) joke I got off to a bad start with Apple in a general sense. My first personal encounter with Apple was from Mac users who considered all things Apple to be utterly and universally superior to everything else but couldn’t enumerate a reason why other than “Apple says so” (i.e. 's/think different/think like we tell you/g'). As I learned more I started to overlook that to a degree but it also became clear they were regurgitating Steve Jobs. To be fair that’s far from unique to Apple* (we’re all human and like our POV) but at the time coming from the “I-don’t-want-to-know-how-it-works-I-just-want-to-click-that-button” camp I found it really irritating.

* I’ve also run into this attitude from other zealots in many areas. As has been mentioned, yet another good reason to just smile and stay away from some topics.

When MacOS was superseded by BSD-based OSX it was a positive change IMO. Classic MacOS was hideously buggy. These days my reaction to Macs / Apple isn’t nearly as strong and not really technical. But without other factors there’s no compelling reason for me to consider a platform that’s – in the context of how I like to work – effectively a step down.

Anyway my Mac comment was 90% humor (most of the time). Besides, I’d never criticize my daughter’s 27" iMac Pro. :slight_smile:

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My Mac friend really hates Musk so when I compare Mac fanbois to Tesla owners it gets under his skin to a degree. :slight_smile: TBF I can be a bit of a troll and have done my fair share of irritating. If you want the most smug person on Earth though it’s a Tesla owner who just bought an Apple Silicon Mac. They won’t shut up about how great either of them are.

It’s the outright dismissal that gets me, he’s alluded numerous times that since Apple has trillions of dollars clearly they know better and if my skills/ideas were worth a hoot I would be working for them. I think he had some bad experiences with local IT or computer nerds a couple of decades ago and is happy to see Apple/MS/Google putting the screws to us as it were. It’s like it doesn’t compute to him that someone can be smart, arrive at a conclusion that Apple has problems and doesn’t want to work for them. That kind of attitude from someone who’s a point-n-clicker will sometimes get my goat.

I do own a couple of Macs and do some Mac admining and dev work. But if Apple evaporated tomorrow I’d go on with my Linux machines completely unbothered. Really I only have a personal Mac for my wife to have something to get at my stuff in an “oh crap” moment when I’m dead or incapacitated. I tried setting up a password manager for us to share, she couldn’t remember the master password ever, which meant she couldn’t get into my Linux machines or accounts. Even with that Linux desktop users who would know where to look (I use a default GNOME desktop on Fedora) and how to get my to my photos and files would prove difficult. With the Macbook she doesn’t have to remember a password or find a USB key to unlock, just take it to an Apple Store, prove she’s next of kin and they’ll unlock it for her or use the fingerprint reader. Plus finding people who know how to operate/get stuff off a Mac is 200% easier for her. Anything I want to make sure she can have I have Syncthing move to the Mac and it’s external storage but I don’t really use it much as a DD at home.

But I’m with you, it’s not something I like to use on a daily basis. I find Apple’s lobbying to be problematic and honestly companies of that size and wealth should scare people period. They’re basically almost un-regulatable with that kind of money. If EU tries to make them do something my money is they’ll threaten to pull out of the market, people will hear “evil gubbermint is trying to take away your iPhones” via Apple’s guerrilla marketing and they’ll throw a fit and blame the regulators. In my mind Tim Cook is basically a more suave and less comical Dr Evil. Same goes for Google to a degree.

Anyway, that got way off topic. There’s zealotry all over but there are a few things that seem to inspire cult like behavior. The FSF stuff is another version of that. I use as much free/libre software as I can but I realize there is a line where if it doesn’t work it’s no good. I do wish people took more of an interest in how how the things they use everyday work instead of trusting these companies but that’s probably not going to happen. Same sort of stuff has happened in photography to a degree. There’s a lot of behind the scenes stuff software and hardware does that even professionals don’t understand nor care to despite it impacting their work. They just want “slider go brrr.”

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I guess my final thought here is: buying or using a specific thing is not a substitute for a personality, similarly hating something else isn’t one either. Have an array of interests and things you can talk about has been my strategy.

It’s OK to have different groups of friends with different interests or sets of discussion topics. Maybe it’s because I’m not French but not everything has to be a heated deep philosophical debate about the merits of some tool, idea or such thing. :slight_smile: Have boundaries with some people that can’t seem to live with the fact that other intelligent people arrive at different conclusions than they did. It’s not worth the time. If they cannot respect the boundary of “I don’t want to talk about that” then just move on. I tend to float between social groups and have learned to a degree what I can bring up where and when it’s important to start an argument vs when it’s not. I’m far from perfect there and still learning. Sometimes I just go to an event, smile and wave without saying much out of social obligation.

Some people are just going to not like you, your opinion or thinking or decide you’re stupid/ugly/a Nazi/a Communist for whatever reason and there’s little you can do to change their mind. Especially into today’s heavily divided world. I used to get bent out of shape when it was evident someone just didn’t care for me as I tend to be pretty easy going but as I’ve gotten older I’ve become better at letting it go. Some folks just decide they hate you at first glance or because of who you are or where you live or some other detail. You’ll never figure out why and it’s wasted energy trying to fix it or change their mind.

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I was not ready to be attacked today.

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