Is darktable (or any photo soft) ever too complicated ?

It’s relative, you don’t need to understand all and everything of theses parameters and colour science stuff to edit a picture. That’s a part of the philosophy of Adobe’s products, most lightroom users don’t care and don’t want to learn this. Of course this is helpful when it comes to photo editing, and you’ll probably make greater adjustment knowing it. And that’s the thing that make darktable “complicated” to some users.

In the UX field we often use the example of the car human-machine interface. You know how to drive a car, right ? But do you know anything about mechanics ? Do you know how a engine is working ? Probably not. And does it matters ? Probably not if you are not a Formula 1 driver ! Of course knowing some will help you taking care of your car and all, but that won’t make you a greatest driver. So yes I think it depends on the targeted users too, to what extend they’ll be ready to learn and adopt a new workflow and stuff. A product can’t fit everyone’s need. I’ll say that daktable is for “power users” of photography too…

I don’t thing UI have to be simple at the first sight, what’s matters the most is the mental model it propose, the learning curve of the software and affordance of the tool.
Simply put, the mental model is the idea we have of how something work. This mental model define what we expect of a product (not only softwares, but it’s really important in human-machine interactions) and how we’ll want to use it and the first sight. Every mental model is build at some point, and a mental model is based on beliefs more than facts. A wrong mental model is often the source the of bad-use of products. For example, saying a car will slow down and stop if I just ain’t acelerate is a wrong mental model that non-drivers can have (you also need to be on the neutral point). To me it feels like lightroom choose to mimic the mental model of a camera and others piture editors, naming parameters after the ones you find in camera, even thought it won’t fit exactly from the technical point of view. Darktable however, choose to go for a more “scientific and analog” way, even though it’s no the usual way of doing. And that’s not really a problem, it’s even one of his greatest strengh. The thing is that most people don’t want to change from one mental model to another or add a new one, that’s also why it’s difficult to change from a software to another. But these users usually consider that a photo is 50% the subject, 40% the shooting and 10% the edit, and won’t probably need / want to edit a photo heavily too. If you do corporate portraits, a 1h edited photo won’t pay more than a 10min one, clients will barely notice anyway.
The learning curve of Darktable is quite high in Darktable compared to Lightroom, but not that much compared to 3D softwares for example. The thing is that we accept 3D to be complicated more than photo editing, also because everyone can take a picture, not everyone can create just a 3D sphere… But Darktable has a great learning curve, modudule by module, then drawing mask, then parametric mask. You can get the most of it in 20-30h maybe ? You won’t understand 100% of the term but that will be enough to edit 90% of your photos with the most classical modules. That’s not much. I’ve spent 200+h on Adobe After Effects and I know maybe a third of the software (not even sure), and absolutly nothing of the video tech part thanks to the software. On the other hand using Natron for 20h you’ll just now how to export a basic image with 2 filters but you’ll know way better the composing work you’ve actually done. It’s a choice to take, and assume, and darktable do it right.
The affordance is kinda how a product is self-descriptive. The most famous example are doors handles : no handle means “push”, a handle means “pull”, no matter what’s written on top. On software there are classic statements on the UI : a round box means “1 choice”, squared box means “multiple choices”. A sliders is meant to choose between more than 2 values, curve alows specific ajustments on at least 2 parameters… And to that extend darktable is really great, and the UI gave all the controls to the user, no matter if you’ll have to use 3 curves and 2 sliders to be precise. You can be precise and the UI is showing this too.

Not everything have to work out of the box, what’s important is if it worth it afterwards or not. Darktable is more powerfull than lightroom for sure, more accurate and precise. There is absolutly no doubt in that. I think sometimes the only thing to do is to admit that yes it’s not intuitive for novices out of the box, yes you’ll need to learn some complicated things, and no you’re not forced too. But at some point, if you wants precision and control you’ll have too.
A GUI complexity is always subjective, and in the end only the ease of use matters really. Ideed users are not engineers, they are photographers in need of precise control, otherwhise they’ll be probably using something else. What’s complicated is to “step into it”, yes, like Blender, Natron, After Effects, Solidworks… Every precise and complete software at some points. Even Exels is complicated if you never used it… The one thing for sure is that you can’t make a software 100% easy (out of the box) and complete (powerfull).

A software is never too complicated. It’s too complicated for a certain use, or a certain user.

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Right. Until you stumble upon the infamous blue LED issue and are glad to have someone on a forum give you the recipe that fix it. Again, there are lots of things you don’t need to understand as long as everything works as expected. The problem is what you do when they don’t. The thing about understanding is it makes you able to adapt to whatever situation you are in.

That example got old a long time ago. First of all, precisely because I know how the engine works, I can drive my car in a way that sucks up to 20% less gas than any other person driving it. Then, a car is not a working tool. I don’t produce art with my car, or any other goods for that matter, I don’t make cash with it, I don’t solve people’s issues with it. So let’s not compare a working tool with a commodity.

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This is a very good point, and the source of most “rabbit-hole” encounters. For the large majority of images we take, the processing required to get a faithful rendition isn’t onerous. Take look around, chances are the majority colors you’re observing can be expressed in small display gamuts. Unless you hang out in the fabric department… :grin:

So, one day you take your camera to a theater. When you get home an look at your images, you find garish depictions of the extreme colors, all those rich tones posterized to one extreme value. Theater lighting these days is moving to LED, with which colors not before achievable at the requisite intensities are being inflicted upon hapless audiences. So, your family doesn’t care,as long as the pictures are discernable. You care, however, and … SCHNUKKKKK!!! - sucked down the color rabbit hole…

I’m yelling all this from the bottom of that hole, I am…

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Yes, I agree on that, but most people won’t even notice it, or just live with it. When things stops working as expecting, well you switch to Darktable and start learning all you need. Or you gave up… The exend is where you choose to say stop, it’s a race to perfection.

You’ll use it better for sure, but not knowing it won’t block you from driving a car.

It doesn’t matter the use, for people whose work implies driving a lot, some functions will be helpful, for 95% of the people it won’t. But even if we compare it to video software it would be the same. Now some films are shot on iphone, so what ? yes it’s not precise, you have little control on it, but in the end it doesn’t matter. A film isn’t great because of it’s editing only, for most the stories matters. It’s quite the same with a picture. Do you need to edit a picture during 3h to say that it’s a good one ? I don’t thing so for most people. If you’re into post processing yes definitly, but most people aren’t. But that’s why you choose Darktable over Lightroom.

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The camera doesn’t matter if one controls the lighting, as one would do with a film. Same if a photographer shoots in the studio: I’d expect the amount of post necessary for a studio shot to be more minimal since one can control the lighting.

Right, but bad editing ruins it :wink:

Good edits can be had quickly if you can command your tools well, I don’t think the duration of the edit has much to do with anything. It takes me hours to edit one photo, but 90% of that time is spent looking and thinking about it; time spent tweaking sliders and turning knobs is minimal.

There are many reasons to choose darktable, not just because you’re “into post.”

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I mean it for the precission you need on a picture. But yes it’s quicker depending of your workflow and all, but the end is basically your level of perfection.

If you sees it yes of course !

Of course, I didn’t say it was the only reason. I mean that’s one of the reason you could prefer it over lightroom. And you do have to be a little more interrested about the post processing to take the effort on learning Darktable.

You are also either not understanding my point (very forgivable, that happens to me all the time and I think there’s causation in that correlation) or evading it: I agree totally that abstraction limit your abilities, and will leave you stuck in corner cases. My point is that given the “right” (actually from your view wrong) user, abstractions will keep the unstuck more often. That is a user that has neither the knowledge nor the will to acquire it. This user will not only be stuck in the corner cases you mention, they will also be stuck with much simpler problems like exposure correction etc. That user will achieve more with abstractions that you roundly reject.
Now do not misunderstand me on this: There’s no obligation deriving from this to provide abstractions. My argument is against rejecting abstractions and calling them detrimental regardless of the user. That you couldn’t care less about users not willing to learn is perfectly understandable.

And while you understandably reject the car example, can you really state that for all appliances you use in your live you know in-deep how they work and if there are abstractions in the interface you interact with, then only because they are imposed on you, and you would gladly do away with them if you could? CPUs come to mind.

I think this is an important point. It’s part of the philosophy of darktable that users are necessarily exposed to the theory. Not all of them will go deep into it, like me. But in the end, I think you end up having an overall picture, and geting used to it.
The same way Adobe users get workflow recipes or pay for plugins(black boxes) from the internet, darktable users stay close to the community, see how others do things, grab a piece of theory here (without understanding much of it, but something is registered in the mind), other piece there, and in the end most of them are driving the software at ease up to a certain point - enough to do the 80% of edits, I believe.
Since I don’t make a plunge into the theory, I suspect I will always be dependent of the community. But, so what? Others are dependent from internet recipes and plugins.

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You’re assuming that the GUI wasn’t overcomplicated to begin with, as far too many are. (Speaking generally)

Removing unnecessary complexity is also a correct way to simplify.

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Please do tell me what is unnecessary. These kinds of words are easy to throw, very difficult to define, and vary a lot depending of the use case.

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Yuuup. And it’s complex issue. Everybody has to keep in mind a car-reference imho - first car wasn’t “good” UI/UX, horse buggy was better. 100 years later and we have still “revolutionary” designs like Tesla ones :wink: And those still aren’t good in term of UI/UX when combined with user expectations :slight_smile: same with F1 car, a family sedan and a dump truck - all are “cars” and generally have similar purpose, but their UI/UX is waaay different (normal driver, even a mechanic would get lost in F1 car interface)

UI/UX for specialized tools, such as RawTherapee or Darktable or GIMP or Krita… Hell, even for “simple” think like some music players on desktop isn’t done-deal and IMO needs to constantly evolve. But that evolution is guided by experience of both users and developers (for example, see recent GIMP UI proposal about grouping tools!).

The complexity of interface might be alleviated by better UI selection, choices etc but those never happen immediately. eg bauhaus sliders in darktable allowing very cool and intuitive entry of slider values, far better than any other tool - once you get used to it, other UI (like lightroom) becames “clunky” in regards to sliders :wink: And sliders are tiny part of interface and overal UI/UX.

Once you start removing complexity there’s first problem mentioned:

Just to be clear here, regarding GUI: Any good GUI ever created was first too complex to use by anybody not familiarized with the interface and then changes made were combination of user expectations, user’s workflow, dev reports, designer works, tool enhancements etc, all done in evolutionary manner. Even skeumorphism in ui (remember icons in menus showing floppy for “save”?) was an evolutionary step along the way.

Great, got specific constructive criticism?

Please bear in mind this is a general conversation (the subject says “is darktable or any photo soft ever too complicated”) interspersed with examples from some specific applications. I think @Kirtai was making a general point that removing complexity is not always a bad thing which I don’t think you can really argue with. Perhaps we need a separate thread for the more specific questions around how (or whether) darktable specifically can/should be simplified?

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It’s honestly no point in that IMHO. it should be an evolutionary process for all software (or UI). To the point where it simply makes users better at doing task at hand while keeping them in control and not overflow them with extra stuff. Even darktable - recent changes by Aurellien and others make ui different, but after adjusting to it i see more positive comments (even i find it better overall) since most of things are streamlined while keeping user in control. That kind of things comes with time and experience of users and devs so it’s better to set as an evolutionary process for every software.

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Exactly. People were being too dogmatic about simplifying=removing features when instead simplifying can be streamlining poor UI flow or setting up better defaults.

Or even trying different designs altogether. There are a lot of very different GUI designs that most people never even hear of. Most of what is used today can be traced back to Smalltalk on the Alto, but it was not the only way to do things.

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Nothing in computing is a done deal. To me it’s amazing that people can think such, given how young computing is and how many alternative ways of doing things there are. Check out what was happening in the 70s compared to later for example

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Some thoughts on complexity and learning
Excuse my bad english

Interact SRK mecanism (Jens Rasmussen - 1986) - Skill Rules Knowledge

K : In this case, the user facing a new problem, is going to seek it in his knowledge, if of course he has, if not, and if he understand the problem, he can read web, books, help to friends, on a forum (if it exists or if it finds)
This phase is very heavy in mental charge, makes the individual vulnerable, he makes mistakes.
Context to its importance, for example today almost everyone uses a smartphone (with more or less difficulty…), because we talk about it, the neighbor, the father, the friends have it, and little by little the knowledge progresses.

Imagine Leonard of Vinci arriving in our time. Despite his remarkable intelligence, he will not immediately understand what a smartphone is, what it is used for, etc… when a 5 year old child knows how to use it.
This shows the influence of the cognitive environment (collective learning).
Does that mean that de Vinci is less intelligent than a current child of 5 years, of course not…
De Vinci in in a few days will catch up by learning.

In this phase the knowledge is built and gradually the user will build rules.

R: the users use rules he has learned, he knows how to use the process, he still makes mistakes, he is obliged to read the documentation often, the mental load decreases

S: little by little, by dint of practicing, the gestures become automatic, we do things without thinking and generally it is the right choice. The mental load is weak

Once we get to “S” the problem has stopped being complex
But,if the user does not practice during the moment, he forgets and is obliged to go back a step

The hierarchy of abstraction
She model the process environment, from the most abstract to the most concrete.
The users must be able to find what is essential to understand and use the process.
It goes from the ends and stakes, to the practice of tasks closest to the action : the documentation, the web, the trainings … must allow the user to understand the process and meet his aspirations

Clearly, the documentation (generic terms includind videos, Rawpedia, forums, etc.) of Rawtherapee (or others software) must be appropriate at each level: what are the purposes, → … ->. how do we concretely

Taxonomies
How is the individual (or group) facing the problem. It is in response to these questions that the actions to be carried out will be deduced !
Generally, but there is a lot of taxonomy, the way to perceive the competence can be expressed as well
0 - no knowlege;
1 - can do simple tasks with help;
2 - can do simple tasks alone;
3 - can do all the tasks;
4 -can transmit his know-how;
5 - expert, creation, advances the system

jacques

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This is a bit off topic but neurologists agree that paino player’s brains are different, i.e learning to play the piano permanently changes the brain significantly. I suspect it also improves interdisciplinary thinking.

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An interesting statement since SolidWorks was created by a group of ex-Parametric Technology Corp. employees who wanted to produce a solid modeling program that was simpler and easier to use than ProEngineer (a PTC product)!

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DarkTable is open-source software by a team of world wide contributors like others. So it is normal that the UI is not polished and made for ease of use or the beginner. “Scratch your own itch” is often the motivation to code OSS at all. So it is not a service for other people to save money on lightroom, but to get this extra feature in the software you miss in commercial or non-commercial alternatives.

I found a meme that explains this all to well, think of darkTable instead of Linux.
OS_as_cars

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