Did you see the new sensor that Sony was presenting on YT?
No, I havenāt heard about that. What is it?
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Great to see them innovating again. Iām still not sure what exactly this will bring to photography. It looks like it will be great for video, better autofocus for moving subjects, and some computational benefits too of course. Interesting to see how it will be integrated.
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@darix: I am not sure it is highly relevant for photography (at this point), as it is a 0.9 Mp sensor (1280x720). The feature is compression by change detection, and log voltage (the latter would be neat in a photo camera too). Applications seem to be security / scientific.
I am skeptical about these claims of a huge market. The X70 is very similar to the Ricoh GR ii, so if Fujifilm continued that line today it would be priced similarly to the GRiv, which currently sells for more than 1300 EUR where I live. Thatās very, very expensive for a compact. So was the Sony RX100 line.
Yes, if either Fuji or Sony reintroduced something similar, you would see them out of stock or with a long waitlist. But thatās because they would be afraid of investing in ramping up the factory capacity to a larger volume to serve a smallish market which can be fickle, rather than the market being huge. The market is small, they are lucky to cover the R&D.
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I agree that they would be priced expensively, but a lot of that is because of the current market conditions and lack of competition.
But I think there are actually two markets here for different products. Emily talks about a high-spec compact like the RX100 series, which would be designed for enthusiasts and professionals who want a more compact alternative to their main camera. This is where the X100, Ricoh GR and RX100 cameras already sit. More options in this segment could help to ensure that the cameras that do sit in this niche are not ridiculously priced. And manufacturers already tier their products, so it would be good to see the same strategy applied to their compact range. Sure, have some RX1 and X-Pro flagships, but then do more stripped down options, like an RX10, RX100, X-E (before it went high-end), etc.
Then thereās a market for compact cameras that are still very capable but donāt have to have the same specs as a more pro-oriented camera. This was Tomās take ā that people are still wanting something better than a smartphone, or at least something that provides a more photography-forward experience ā but the options that exist in this segment are ridiculously priced on the used market, simply because they arenāt being made anymore. This is where I think Panasonic and OM System could return with their M4/3 rangefinders. Canon has already revived some of its old lines too because they are probably testing the waters to see if itās a short-term or longer trend.
The profits in this latter market would be more volume based rather than a high markup. So the only way it would work (for manufacturers) is to price the cameras aggressively and try to capture those people who want to step up from a smartphone but donāt want to spend over $1k. This is where the X-Half should sit, but that is definitely overpriced, simply because thereās no real competition. Weāre also seeing quite a lot of enthusiasm for toy cameras like the Camp Snap. Honestly, I would grab something like this if they could just improve the specs more. Their latest āproā model is still under $100 and can provide a fun experience. I would happily pay $500 if they could put a larger sensor in there and improve the shutter delay.
Admittedly, Iām looking at this from a consumerās point of view, but thatās because I am a consumer and photographer. I know people like to give the manufacturerās point of view and explain why it would be difficult for them with the slim profit margins, R&D, trends, etc. But thatās not my problem to solve, and I donāt want to āsympathizeā with big corporations and make their job easier by not asking for more than what weāre getting. We need to create the demand to get the supply 
Between smartphones and used cameras from yesteryear, the bottom end of the market is probably a tough sell. The X-Half (and perhaps Instax Evos) are an interesting solution to this, as they offer something differentiated from smartphones.
Come to think of it, an X-Half Evo (i.e. an X-Half with an integrated Instax Mini printer) might be a supremely fun combination. I do get a surprising amount of fun out of the Instax Evo that I bought for a wedding. I only wish the digital files werenāt quite so poor on a bigger screen.
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True, but if they stop producing compacts or there are only very few left in production, the used cameras from yesteryear will become as expensive as brand new cameras, and in some cases they already are. Unfortunately, that makes the competition from smartphones even tougher. Itās hard to recommend a 10-year old camera that costs the same as a modern smartphone.
So I still think thereās a gap in the $300-$1000 range that could be interesting for some brands, especially if they differentiate from smartphones. The Olympus Tough line is one of those Iād argue is decently priced and definitely more capable than a smartphone in some areas (like macro, underwater, outdoor ruggedness). I just wish they bumped the size of the sensor a little bit. And yes, I agree about the Instax Evo. It just needs a bump to digital file quality.
I guess itās to be seen whether the recent enthusiasm for compacts and āretroā cameras is just a short-term trend (I hear that Selena Gomez and Taylor Swift use an Olympus E-M10), or whether it will last. I personally feel that there will always be those who will prioritize portability rather than a large-sensor ILC rig. And I also feel that we might see even more pushback against smartphones in imaging. Hard to tell though. Humans are notoriously fickle in their tastes and trends.
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But, the manufacturers have already solved the problem (for them) by simply ignoring it. Just because you/we want something doesnāt mean they have to make it.
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Absolutely @Tim , and neither should they make it just because I want something. This isnāt a question of entitlement. Iām just one voice. but if there are more voices and eventually a clamour, then manufacturers might listen.
In truth, I doubt I represent the masses, and Iām not expecting what I want to necessarily happen. My ranting on this forum is just a substitute for sitting in the pub among friends and trying to solve the worldās problems 
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There aināt enough beer in the world to get to the bottom of that! 
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Why do you think there is a āgapā in this price range? There are plenty of capable cameras, including
- OM10iv, 800 ā¬ (kit)
- Panasonic G100D 675 ā¬ (kit)
- Canon EOS R100 580 ā¬ (kit)
- Canon EOS R50 750 ā¬ (kit)
- Sony A6100 780 ā¬ (kit)
- Fujifilm X-M5 790 ā¬ (kit)
Prices are from amazon.de, intentionally kit prices so one can pop in an SD card and start shooting.
Of course none of these are flagships, and they lack some features. But they are definitely more capable than a smartphone and give a totally different picture quality, especially when paired with a fast prime instead of the kit lens.
It is very hard to argue that manufacturers are neglecting this price bracket in any sense, there is even reasonable competition.
If course, 500 ā¬ is probably the cheapest one can make a camera kit these days. But given how much money some people spend on āflagshipā mobile phones, I am not sure this is what is preventing people from buying a camera.
I think that cameras are niche products because you have to invest a bit of time in learning to produce good photos. It is no wonder that some players in the market is trying to lower these barriers, Fujifilm with presets, Panasonic with LUTs, Olympus with very capable in-camera presets and a paired app. But I think that the potential demand you are talking about is still imaginary; the products exist, but few people are buying them.
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Yep. And I would like to note that interchangeable lens cameras have been selling more or less the same amount for the last 15 years or more. There may have been a small decline, but what people were buying were point and shoots or cameras with fixed lenses, much like in the film days.
Do āpeopleā really want cameras with interchangeable lenses? I donāt think so, so itās hard to say that a market really exists for this scenario
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And I would say that fixed prime lens premium cameras (Ricoh GR, Fujifilm X100 series) are even more of a niche product.
You have to be in a position to appreciate a fast prime lens combined with a reasonable large sensor, which requires some exposure (
) to photography. A lot of people people buying their first ārealā camera would probably dismiss these even for half their actual price.
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I think even in the prime DSLR days, most non-geeks had the kit zoom and never took it off. Just a DSLR was understood as a āseriousā camera no matter how you used it (on P or scene mode)
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I agree. I was bitten by the camera bug in the late 70s, and I got a Canon AE-1. I built up to having three lenses. Then it was stolen, and I switched to a Nikon FA with two good AIs primes and an E-series telephoto zoom. This camera ruined my vacations for about 15 years. I spent so much effort carrying all that stuff and having to switch lenses as differing photo opportunities arose that I essentially missed the fun of vacations.
Then, for several years, I used a Nikon Coolpix 4500 which greatly reduced the hassle. But my next camera was a little Nikon D-3300, which led me to remember why I had gotten the Coolpix.
So, I am just a mess. I would love to do excellent photography, but ILC cameras are a pain. I will probably end up just being an iPhone photographer. Sigh
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Coincidentally, an email came to me this morning with a link to this article. It is a bit āfluffyā, but is a good summary of several products in the space that we are discussing.
Well, I was talking about compact cameras (which is what this thread is about) that you can buy new within that price range. Your list included several that I donāt think really fit into that category. I personally wouldnāt put any of Canonās SLR-style cameras in the compact segment, although thatās debatable I suppose. Iāve never held an E-M10 in my hands, but is it really compact?
- OM10iv, 800 ā¬ (kit) - launched in 2020, future uncertain
- Panasonic G100D 675 ā¬ (kit) - launched in 2020, future uncertain
- Canon EOS R100 580 ā¬ (kit) - not exactly compact
- Canon EOS R50 750 ā¬ (kit) - not exactly compact
- Sony A6100 780 ā¬ (kit) - launched in 2019, latest in the line is well above $1k
- Fujifilm X-M5 790 ā¬ (kit) - This one is a good example, but good luck finding one at the moment.
When I talk about compact, Iām really thinking of cameras the size of the Ricoh GR, Panasonic GM, Sony RX100, Olympus E-PL, etc., and there arenāt exactly a glut of those around at the price range I mentioned other than on the used market.
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Here in Portugal it costs 1000ā¬ exactly, with lens. 210ā¬, more than MSRP, damn. All out of stock
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