Eg shadows & highlights, color zones, etc.
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Just so I am clear: What is the scene-referred replacement for shadow & highlights?
I believe tone equalizer is usually accepted as the replacement module if someone wants to use a scene referred module for shadows and highlights management.
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Have mentioned having both in my workflow sometimes, but TE is more like shadows, highlights and everything else!
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Yeah, I think both are great, but personally I donât think tone equalizer is a âgreatâ replacement, since it is so different and requires fiddling with the masks to get it to work properly (but that might just be my perception).
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I think tone equalizer is amazing. It is not the most straight forward module to use, but I also donât think it falls into this âtoo general to be of useâ trend youâre talking about. It is quite specific and really, really powerful.
I feel the same way about color balance rgb, its really good, and you can do a whole bunch of things with color. There are a lot of sliders, but each is distinct and does one thing.
The project still recommends the local contrast module if you donât like diffuse or sharpen.
And actually the only reason we started recommending modules at all is because people wanted recommendations. So we did that. But really you should use whatever gives you the results you want. Thatâs why nothing is removed. Its a double edged sword.
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I believe this was the plan at some point for certain modules. Certainly AP alluded to it in his blog post PIXLS.US - Darktable 3:RGB or Lab? Which Modules? Help!
And this is the exact quote:
âThese modules need to be adapted in the future to be able to work on a linear Yxy space (derived from CIE XYZ) because it is a mistake to make them work in Lab (at least, as a default). Itâs a relatively easy job to do, because Yxy breaks down the luminance (Y channel) and chrominance (channels x and y) with a logic similar to Lab, minus the non-linear transformation. In the meantime, you can continue to use them, but with moderation.â
Unfortunately, because of the nature of open-source projects like this one, developers come and go, and time/resources are scarce.
I put in a feature request for Color Lookup Table to be âupgradedâ to linear RGB or at least to be more robust in the scene-referred workflow, but it seems the code is quite complicated and none of the current devs wanted to tackle it.
This situation is very understandable, but itâs a shame that more porting hasnât happened because I feel this would have been the best solution to keep module proliferation in check while keeping the user-friendly interfaces of the older modules.
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I think that we are not saying that it is âtoo general to be of useâ. Just that its generality and complexity can get in the way when you want to do something that does not require that level of complexity. Even if you may get something done with just a couple of controls, there are still a lot of controls that make it harder to learn how to use it effectively for the simple things.
If its âgeneralâ what else are you doing with it? Its pretty specifically for working with tones. If you donât like fiddling the mask, you can turn the mask off.
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Talking about ToneEq and its comparison with S&H, I was reporting what others say (as I diligently already stated).
Personally, I donât use it because I could never learn to control it effectively. I find masking multiple exposure instances more intuitive and controllable.
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You said:
âWeâ generally includes you, but I digress.
Youâve found something that works for you, and thatâs excellent. For others, shadows and highlights works fine, and thatâs great too. Personally I never found shadows and highlights to be useful, it was too simple. I was a mask and tone curve user until tone equalizer came along.
And thatâs whatâs good about darktable, there are a lot of tools in the tool box and thatâs why none of them get removed.
I thought this thread was about the possibility of too many new modules and overwhelming the current resources. Once a module is here, its hard to take away.
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I am not sure if I am reading you correctly, but you seem to entail that someone is suggesting to replace, e.g., ToneEq, with something else.
If I understood the conversation above, nobody suggested that. What I and others are saying is that in addition to these very powerful, complex, generic scene-referred modules, it wouldnât hurt to have more specific scene-referred modules whose UIs are optimized for more targeted activities (which is in line with the spirit of the OP).
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Part of the reason that Tone Eq has the limitation of 8 stops is because selecting highlights and shadows in the Scene part of the pixelpipe is difficult. Masking off part of the image at the current input luminance values allow you to work on the image. I donât know how youâd keep the simplicity of Shadows and Highlights but have it work in the scene part of the pipe.
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they simply have different priorities regarding where to spend their effort. Streamlining the pixel pipeline for better performance takes a lot of effort but gives improvement for all users (just redesign an existing module which isnât really failing might just address a small range of users) Same for improving GPU support. Have a look at the contribution statistics of GitHub and you can see, that there arenât that much developers.
Unfortunately fighting technical depts in an several years old codebase takes a lot of effortâŚ
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Yes, absolutely, and as I stated in the original post, itâs the nature of projects like this one and the situation is very understandable. No criticism or complaint is implied or should be inferred.
Iâm thankful for all work being done on this great software. I wish I could contribute more with actual development.
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I just hover my cursor in the parts of the image I want to brighten/darken and scroll, what else is there to know for basic usage? Itâs so fast and simple, way easier than using sliders
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I do wonder if some of the problem is that new modules are being created rather than old modules being improved.
DT has become very module focused rather than capability focused, or objective focused.
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modules provides capabilites - but there are obviously different expectation what a capability means 
At least itâs not the result of marketing and an average user centric product positioning. Itâs designed as an expert system, providing best possible tools with focus on control - better compare it to a PLM or ERP software than with end user software.
itâs a bit strange: users pays thousands of bucks for highly configurable camera equipment and the expect an esay to use âgreen rectangleâ style raw editor.
Thereâs no lack of simple and easy to use raw editing software - thereâs a lack of expert oriented tools that gives them more control than productmanagers find it valuable âŚ
So darktable developers spend their effort because they prefer its scope âŚ
up to now - and in difference to ART in case of RawTherapee - no one found it worth to spend effort to provide and maintain a simplified clone âŚ
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Thatâs exactly my experience, one of the best tools in DT, especially when youâre coming from other software.
That is my experience as well. But you need to take the time to invest in learning it. At first it was really overwhelming⌠But now I find my way around pretty well. And I am very happy with the results. But some of the results I want to achieve are still not easy.
For me darktable often feels more like a an entire workshop that I have at my disposal! And I agree, no need to remove tools.
But I kind of agree with @Masterpiga analysis. I donât see more modules are problem. I have lotâs of tools in my workshop that I donât use often. I am also not going to throw away, they are useful. Even the old tools are sometimes very handy!
So, if there are new specialised modules, I will not complain, also, because the interface of darktable is very flexible so I can hide them (aka: out them in a closed cabinet) and still maintain an interface that is easy to work with.
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