Puzzling UI set-up of new dt 4.0

Software darktable
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I have installed dt 4.0 on my Linux Mint pc.
(Thanks to those who for the last couple of dt versions have arranged for new versions to be immediately pushed in Mint update system, while previously it could take frustrating months. Much appreciated!)

Prior to installation I de-installed 3.8.1 and deleted the /.config/darktable folder, so I believe I now see dt 4.0 as any completely new user sees it – and that puzzles me somewhat:

While the manual argues for and describes the scene-referred approach/workflow, the default preset for the module groups is still “modules:default” which presents a lot of legacy modules, even modules that users are warned against.

Neither the “workflow:beginner” preset fully directs new users towards scene-referred workflow. (As the “workflow:scene-referred” preset anyhow contains a limited number of modules sorted under a easily understandable set of tabs, it’s difficult to understand who the “beginner” preset is really aimed at. Yes, the color balance rgb module is likely not the entry point for most beginners. It still seems like a disservice to hide it in the beginner preset and rather direct users towards other modules that they likely will not continue to use. )

Furthermore in the preferences - processing - auto-apply chromatic adaption defaults is initially set to legacy, rather than modern.

Finally, the diffuse or sharpen module is only visible in “modules:default” and “modules:all” presets.

I think that the UI as presented to new users should be in line with the recommendations of the manual (and the general direction of modern dt). The onus should rather be on established users to change these default settings, (if their currently used presets is not carried over during upgrading).
Is the current default initialization set-up a forgotten left-over?

2 Likes
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I agree. The default modules aren’t great, the new filter stuff is confusing (and it feels like there are now 3 places to filter images?!), and it takes forever to find a setting in the settings panel now.

I’ve used darktable for a few years, but the UI of darktable 4.0 is quite a big regression. It hasn’t kept up with the strides darktable has made in the workflow.

As an experienced user, I do know which modules to enable and disable to get a modern workflow, which options need to be on or off, and how to mostly hide the new mostly-superfluous filtering. I can make darktable still work for me. But I’ve invested time into knowing how to do all that (including the how and why).

I agree with you: Someone new to darktable should all these settings fine tuned for them by default.

Hopefully some of this could be solved with a 4.0.1 followup? And more could be done in the future too?

It’s great darktable keeps growing feature-wise (with respect to all the better color and image processing functionality). I wish the UI (especially for ease of use for newcomers) would be considered more though. I’d like to have less clutter and (even more importantly) would like to be able to recommend it to others more without having to explain so much.

4 Likes
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I agree.

As great as dartable is, I think in terms of UI it won’t hurt to simplify it a bit and get in line with current approach to editing.

Similarily to @garrett, I know how to use the app in the efficient way because, well, I’m really inquisitive and geeky sometimes.

I’ve stripped my modules list out of the groups - I have the modules organised in one, not so long, vertical list, just more like Lightroom or DXO does. The “active” group is also shown, of course.

My modules are chosen not only becasue of current recommendations, but also tested by me - if I like them, what great use I can achieve etc.

What can I say… It’s great for me - I don’t mind putting time, effort, asking questions here and reading discussion to craft the app to suite my workflow. Really, I’ve never looked back to Lightroom since hmm… darktable 2.4.

But for someone else, who not necessarilly is up to date with modern concepts of image processing or reading / listening English, it is overwhelming.

I have a dear friend who has been taking pictures long before I was born. When he visits me, he likes the darktable’s output, how the images look and even the looks and behaviour of the app itself, but the latter are results of my tinkering with the workspace and setting up hidden autopresets for e.g. chromatic aberrations or denoising.

Tomorrow I’ll be installing darktable on his machine, then I’ll import my settings and we’ll have the first of many interesting discussions and image editing sessions :grinning:

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Usually point releases like 4.0.1 are just for bugfixes. We try to avoid new or changed features as it makes user manual changes problematic (and we now have twice-yearly feature releases anyway).

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FWIW, I duplicated the scene-referred preset and added ‘diffuse or sharpen’ just so it’s visible by default. I’ve selected that preset as my default

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Honestly there are too many presets shipped in this module. We would be better off with just the one, containing recommended modules only.

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I’m all ears!

Exactly that!

And that diffuse or sharpen is not visible under the recommended scene-referred preset must be regarded as a glitch, so no reason not to fix it like a bug in 4.0.1. (And as the “modern” setting rather used as default in preferences don’t necessitate any manual change etc, it goes with the flow …)

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I’m not in a position (of knowledge) to recommend anything but I tend to agree. My action was just one of “in the moment” practicality. :slight_smile:

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Unfortunately there is no equivalent to d&s in other image editors. So the usage of 1st-4th order speed and anisotropy is nothing where an basic understanding can be a result of transfering experience from other tools.
Therefore it’s helpful to have several presets that allows to learn by tweaking them and evaluate the result.
Even the manual is not helpful for somebody never saw such thing:
Little test: can you explain the consequences of changing ‚The direction of diffusion of the low-frequency wavelet layers relative to the orientation of the gradient of the low-frequency‘ to your grandma?

It’s one of the modules where even a translation to your mothers tongue doesn’t give a better understanding :wink:

2 Likes
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@MStraeten: Sorry I wasn’t clear (in fact I mislead by saying “this module”) – I was referring to “module group” presets. I completely agree that D&S is only useful for most people (including me) with the presets as a starting point.

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Never mind my grandma… I’m not sure I can explain it to myself! LOL

In 3.8 there was a widget pop-up somewhere that read something like “Normalizes the power function”. I can’t find it offhand now, maybe it was revised. But I remember thinking, “uhh… ok” :slight_smile:

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There’s 2 things you pointed:

  • default modules set on modules presets. This had probably just been forgotten. I don’t see any regression on that part as it was already the same in previous release. I thinks posting an issue to ask for an update on that would be good. Of course, as new workflow is recommended, default modules preset should be updated. Unfortunately, manys developers and users who post feedback use darktable since a time and so probably had their own presets; And so didn’t thought about updating that.

  • About new filters, it’s quite more complicate. At first, new filters had been added because some users had some complaints about historic filters, especially that they are not really simple to use (use boolean symbols that some users don’t understand, etc.). The idea was at first to replace old filters but lack of time and also worries about complaints if we remove too early old ones make that old ones had been kept. New design filters are indeed quite controversial but we have had probably something near 50/50 hate or love them feedback.
    I personally find new star rating filter much better and quicker (on click or drag and click, instead of 2 to 4 clicks on old one. I don’t understand feeback about counting stars. I find it really quick (less than a second) to see which stars are selected (it’s only 5 stars and one no star icon). I anyway understand that we are all different.
    I will not talk about other range filters (those with “timeline” view) as I don’t use them, even same filters with old system. And I don’t like timeline view in bottom of lighttable so I do not add more feedback on that part.
    Said all that, we have had users who find them better, and of course at the end, it’s not good to keep 3 parts to filter images. Having just 2: one main part and top bar for some quick filters choosed by the users should be final part (and this what is it planned since the beginning). Old system is not good, new one need to be improved; What’s difficult is to find which way to fit to more users and having a system which is appreciated by more people than old one and new one.

For that filters part, I think this thread recently opened could be a good way to continue discussion: A calm, rational and respectul discussion about the new collection filters

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There’s a boolean symbol in the new color labels filter as well

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Yes, and I have pointed that when this was done. And I understand that it’s not easy to replace that with more obvious ways for all users without overriding UI. If that is so controversial is probably also because it’s not easy to find a good way between not too heavy UI and not too short one too… And I even don’t have ideas how to deal with that for such things.

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And of course if the boolean symbols were the problem that could have been fixed in the collections module.

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Of course. It’s also about having all things in just one line (criteria, symbol, etc. in a tiny side module panel is not the better thing i think. And yes, new filters remains probably too big at the opposite.
And It’s not only that. But it’s all explain in Alic PR’s.

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I have no view on the filtering system, (-- and that subject actually falls outside of the caption of this thread which is about the “UI set-up”, not the UI design).

In addition to what I’ve already pointed to regarding the default presets for the modules group deviating from recommendations in the manual and not being suited for beginners, I will also point to the presets for the Quick Access Panel neither being in tune with the recommendations in the manual.

The recommendations in the manual regarding white balance is to normally leave the settings in the white balance module as automatically set by the system upon opening an image file, and rather execute any white balance adjustments via the color calibration module. As I think the preset for the content in the Quick Access Panels should foremost be laid out with the complete beginner in mind, I therefore don’t find it logical that the QAP default comes with widgets from the white balance module included, while excluding the relevant white balance controls from the color calibration module.