I think that any large scale operation would benefit from a governance structure to maintain discipline and to set the path for the future, and to adjudicate issues. I can also speak from personal experience that volunteer organizations sometimes need new management approaches because they’ve outgrown the old way of doing business.
But those sorts of changes need to be sensitive to the volunteers who put their time in out of a sense of personal satisfaction, and while a rant can be cathartic and thought provoking it can also be equally destructive on morale.
I think the discussion drifted from the original intention. They are all valid points but the original idea was really how an end user would handle or navigate the 2 builds.
DT is more than processing tool. It also takes big part in organizing the images - tags / descriptions - categorizing everything and finding it later. In essence - this is a content that changes overtime - doesn’t stay the same. Personally - I find a lot of value in this component too. And because of such reasons - splitting the project raises concerns to the end user.
If the 2 builds stay compatible to a big extend - my hope would be - even if AP develops UI that is R&D only - at the very least the processing is handled by both. If I understand correctly - this is the intention (because the pixel pipe stays common) but I maybe wrong.
I also want to apologize to all - my intention was never to promote harsh expression of feelings (even when the feelings maybe very strong for a particular individual). And I agree - when a person is overloaded - it is best to take a break.
My desire was rather raising questions as a regular user. Given the circumstance - how do you think the projects would evolve.
The video itself has some very good points (like KISS or defining a problem before attempting to resolve it, focusing on simpler quality builds etc.) There is also a lot that is emotion based and regular user would rather avoid. Sadly - there is no easy way to separate one from the other.
I guess there is too much unknown and we will have to wait and see.
I think the conversation here is fine (save the Facebook screenshot… But its Facebook, so…) And my comment was fully in reference to the video you posted, which is a swear-word filled 45 minute insult to a lot of people working on darktable. Is that what we want to promote here?
I’m never quite sure why people have their mouth full of “freedom of expression” but the moment a few swear words are used it goes out the window? The internet is full of profanities, real life splatters blood and gore all over our screens every time we switch on the evening news. Countries bomb other countries and we are worried about someone using what Americans euphemistically call the “F-bomb”?
Have we all forgotten the South Park “It Hits the Fan” the fifth season premiere? To paraphrase the words of the Comedy Central execs back in 2001 (!!), Aurelien’s profanity is justified by context. What happened 20 years ago is that despite broadcasting a record-setting amount of profanity, little controversy was stirred by the broadcast.
One of the reason I love open source is the power of the individual to not only rant about something he feels is an abomination, but to go and actually do something about it. Would AP only rant and insult without taking action, DT developers and/or users could be justified to feel insulted. I personally welcome AP’s words, every last profanity used. I am already testdriving his fork and see where it is going.
Let history and the users do the judging. We’ll know in a year or so which way the cookie crumbles.
The choice of words is within the person’s control. One can choose to use them or not. I welcomed the argument - what he likes or dislikes - what is beneficial and what not and why he feels the way he does. I do not welcome the profanity.
If I had a way to easily extract all the good parts and completely eliminate the bad - I would do it. It is an intentional choice of words.
If it is not, why was the original video removed and the post edited? I do not think for one second it is about the swearing at all, at least it shouldn’t be.
Not really sure who you’re talking about, but I’ll say this again: this is not a free speech zone. Never has been and never will be.
This is less about the swearing itself and more about the ad hominem attacks and insults made against others who particiapte it in the project.
Yes. And in some places people shit on the floor. Does that mean we can come to your house and shit on the floor? Or do you try and maintain some sense of decorum?
Wow, this is just not the way things should work. You can critique something without insulting people. Ideas can and are frequently bad, but that doesn’t mean you need to call the person names and personally insult them.
History will say that he could’ve made the same critique without the insulting language.
It was removed by the original poster after we spoke about it in this thread. The original poster is no Aurelian. Not sure why you see a problem with someone editing their own post?
You’re missing the point entirely. Aurelian is free to say whatever he wants over on YouTube. He is free to publish it. The question is whether that is what we want to promote here in our community on our plafrom. I think the answer is “probably not”
Disclaimer: I have no idea what a “free speech zone” is supposed to mean, is that something vaguely American? I was talking about freedom of expression which is an entirely different beast altogether. One is unbound and unlimited under some primitive hundreds of years old constitutional amendment. The other is a carefully protected and weighed freedom in most of the democratic world, usually only limited when it violates someone else’s freedoms.
I understand that you see posting content as “promoting” it rather than initiating discussion and that makes me feel sad indeed.
By the way, I have no idea who this “we” in “what we want is”. Is it you? You and a few others? everyone here? Forum owners? Mods? I generally stay away from using we and prefer keeping it close to myself. If “you” think the answer to your own question is “probably not”, that’s fine but the “we”-thing is a weird discussion format .
A. The main reason for a society to adhere to freedom of speech, is to promote the dissemination and critical analysis of ideas that can promote progress (socially/political/technical/etc) and support justice. That may include criticizing acts and omissions by others, but it doesn’t give ground for criticizing the personality of others, (unless they seek a public role where there’s reasons for believing that their personality make them prone to perform negative acts). So “you have done something stupid because …” stands in a totally different position than “you are an idiot”.
B. We are humans,- which means we live in society with others in an extremely complex many layered web – so we are our relations and we have gotten shame as a measure to prevent us from harming these relations (as we have gotten pain to prevent us from harming our body). The complex web consist of lots of norms of rights and obligations – many of them more or less contradicting some of the others. So, even though we are not put in jail for a “you idiot!”, we need to decide if that is a wise way to act towards each others.
Humiliation, as legal as it may under the circumstances be or not, is described as the nuclear bomb of emotions. After a long life, I’ve come to believe strongly in dignity as a fundamental value in human interaction in all aspects. I wish that AR would retract his expletives – nothing is gained by them except AR getting off some necessary steam. Even though we can understand his frustration, we should rather discuss the facts.
(The link to the video was anyhow useful for one who hadn’t knowledge of it from before and who are not into the development work - it informed us for the moment on what’s behind the fork and what current temperature is in the project.)
Yes it is an American concept, and since you were not talking about it, I’ll stop there.
You don’t have “freedom of expression” as you describe it on this platform either, you’re bound by our terms of service and other such things. Certainly it is not “unbounded.” I hope that is more clear.
It is partly myself but I heavily consider the public and private feedback I get from other users here. I try to act on the general will of our users. Ultimately someone has to make a decision, and that is generally me, or a few of the other mods/admins.
If you read what you quoted, it looked to me like a question addressed to the community (“The question is whether that is what we want to promote…” - the “we” being “the people who populate these forums”) followed by a personal opinion (“I think the answer is…”). When controversial topics come up here, I generally find the number of likes a good indication of the community’s reaction to a post. If you read just the posts that have been liked on this thread, I think it tells a compelling story of what people think.
In 2019, one of dt devs changed the UI so much that when I loaded a build from git, it felt too much for me to handle. So I tweeted “The hell happened to darktable’s UI? Will have to learn it again :)”. A few hours later, some angry person replied to me, asking me why I dare criticize someone else’s work and who I am to do that anyway.
As chance would have it, at that very moment I was sitting right next to dt devs at a dinner at Libre Graphics Meeting, so I handed my phone over to them and showed them our little exchange. I vividly recall houz sighing and saying “I don’t get it. Why do these people think we need their protection?”.
I’m telling you this story bc so far I haven’t seen any other dt dev responding to this video. I do think AP spent too much time with troy_s for his own sanity, but he also spent 4 years of his life programming for dt, so maybe we could discuss the substance of the video rather than the attitude and let the team handle it among themselves like the grown-ass people that they are?
Personally, I think the FOSS ecosystem in general is missing out on having product owners big time. Darktable has the essence of what it takes to be a great digital photography workflow tool — in technical terms. Now it needs the vision and the UX design talent to drive the technical talent in the right direction.
I was hoping we can focus on that and concerns (how and to what extend the 2 projects would cooperate and / or collaborate with one another) from end user’s point of view.
At the end - this is what the forum is - share opinions, express concerns etc.
Some good points in here… or maybe the concept is extinct
Everyone has bias as to what they feel acceptable… Social media has created a whole new platform for discourse. Not having to look someone in the eyes or be in the same room totally alters the dynamic. At the end of the day personally I don’t like any form of personal attack…its noise and manipulation…we have lots of bullies and we should not go down a path that would make that seem more acceptable. Just stick to the facts make your case stating this right or wrong or my opinion and present your case…people can then make up their minds…
If you can’t agree then just agree to disagree and move on…what is to be gained.
As for the rant…as someone mentioned it was on a personal channel and so the owner has the right and control to say what they want within that platform…
What would a rant be without swearing So maybe just more discussion and less ranting
I occasionally develop/test for the darktable project and am the primary maintainer of the user manual. @paperdigits is also a maintainer on the user manual and darktable.org and as well as commenting as a user on this forum (as he has in this thread) also acts as a mod (a capacity in which he was not acting here).
I would like to do that as well, and I happen to agree with many of the points that Aurelien made in the video. I’m strongly of the opinion that if these points had been put forward in a measured, logical, and respectful manner, they would have had much more force. Sadly some people believe that shouting, swearing and calling people names gives their argument more force. I couldn’t disagree more and I can’t imagine acting in such a way in my day job.
Well yes. But being a maintainer is an unpaid and thankless job, usually performed by people who have a real day job as well. Holding together a group of contributors in a similar position without them or you rage-quitting in frustration sometimes involves discussion and compromise and whether or not I agree with the decisions made I have the utmost respect for people who step forward to do such a job.
Indeed. these people do not deserve respect, no matter how relevant the things they have to say. Knowledge is available everywhere and by everyone. No one is irreplaceable.
If we accept disrespect for knowledge, however great it may be, we deserve neither respect nor knowledge.
