I disagree and not privileged. They have taken on a responsibility to provide darkTable and other open source photo editors with RAW conversion code. Just because they are open source does not give them a free pass. Especially when they have the conversion. If this was a matter of them being overwhelmed. Sure we all can understand. They HAD the code a year ago. Ok they can choose to release in 10 years. Then darkTable and others have the responsibility to look elsewhere or bring it in house.
If you were darkTable or had responsibility for any number of other open source photo editors. Would you say, sure we can wait for years for any number if new camera RAW formats?
your statement is wrong on so many levels. they have no responsibility at all.
opensource means one thing āhere is my source and you can use it under this licenseā
after that:
the dev doesnt owe anyone anything. not even that the source is still around next week. devs will try to provide fixes if their life situation and time permits.
if you want more than that. Then you have to step up. it can come in many forms. Support the devs so they can maybe live based on their opensource work, which then gives them more time to work on the project.
hire your own devs and have them contribute.
the longer version is here. The talk is worth your time.
The company behind libraw needs to pay their devs as well.
Then darkTable and other open source programs must go elsewhere. It is still a business. It just has a different model. They still have a responsibility to do the job or get out.
What if an OS like GrapheneOS said we will update when we decide. Do you think they will survive?
You also ignore my points and where I agree with you. We understand this takes time. May not be the primary job. They need the time and space to update. As well as our understanding. They had the RAW conversion last year. Ok maybe I need to understand it is their decision when to update. It is darkTableās responsibility to look elsewhere. They are unreliable.
Open source does not mean one has no responsibility.
You continue to double down with arrogance of how a FOSS project is not meeting your expectations. You expect dt to have the responsibility to make the proprietary closed source camera files from your camera work within your expected timeline.
Iām out from any further post on this thread. Have a nice day.
I do get your point. I recognize the expectation of responsibility that comes with publishing a thing. If I publish a thing, there is a reasonable expectation that I will take responsibility for it. And I will try to do that if possible. But it is also important to state that Iāll do that of my own free will, not because of any obligation. I did not sign a contract.
I have to ask myself every day, should I spend my evening in front of the computer, helping other people? Or spend time with my family? Or maintain my psychological wellbeing by relaxing? Or hone my photography with some post processing? Or talk to my friends?
More to the point, what good would it do if I burned myself out and had to abandon things entirely? Iāve been there, and Iāve seen it with others. This is not a desirable outcome.
Thus, I am very sorry to say, many other things take precedence over my Open Source work. While I myself maintain reasonable expectations that I will address problems eventually, I will only ever do this out of the kindness of my heart.
So, please, be gentle and polite when you demand things of Open Source devs. You are asking them to spend their own free time for your benefit. They are absolutely free to do as they please. Because Open Source projects (by and large) are not businesses.
The real arrogance is assuming this is a business and you can treat us like that.
And I would ask you to take a very serious look at many of the commercial companies out there. Each of them at one point in the recent years showed you really well that they donāt care about users as much as they care about the profits for their shareholders. I would even go so far to bed that one of those companies annoyed you enough to even look at darktable in the first place.
Most opensource is done in a way āoh let me hack this tool to make my own life easierā. When you have done the work, we often think āah lets put this out there maybe it helps someone elseā. If you are lucky someone else comes a long and is like āoh this almost solves my problem, i will just quickly add the missing featureā. And then suddenly your software starts growing.
And sometimes living with opensource means that the latest hardware is not supported until you start pushing things along yourself. Or you buy not the latest hardware, which then might be supported better. Or you donāt use all the shiny new features (like some Nikon/Fuji/Sony compression formats).
I completely agree on those points, but I think there was more to that going on wrt to CR3 raw support. It was my understanding that users had stepped up and provided PRs to incorporate the new Canon models, but LibRaw seemed to be slow walking acceptance of the changes for whatever reason, always asking for more and never being enough
The respect works both ways, if LibRaw simply wonāt accept user input then they shouldnāt ask for it
Of course, I might be off base on that history, but thatās what I had read in the GitHub discussions.
If you accept contributions without a contributor license agreement, it makes commercial use and/or re-licensing later a bit more difficult. thatās why i can understand a bit why they are a bit hesitant on that front.
Though what is confusing me a bit ā¦ if all the CR3 format features are in a patch on the libraw git. why arenāt those ported to the other libraries?
IIRC the basics of CR3 were some patented iso format.
Again, I agree but that didnāt seem to be the case here and LibRaw never brought that up as an issue. I just believe that if they had no intention of incorporating contributorās inputs for whatever reason then they should say that and not waste that contributorās time.
In this case I switched to Photolab 9. However i support open source 100%. I have taken advantage of many open source applications. I have also contributed to a number of them. Never have any of them delayed updating a feature a year later. We should all support open source. This does not mean they are untouchable. libraw does deserve criticism for delaying updating the R5 mark II RAW converter for over a year. How many other camera RAW converters were delayed for no reason?
I will say again we should be thoughtful and understanding of the challenges of open source. This does not mean they are free from criticism. I will say it again. This was not a delay based on the challenges of creating the RAW converter. It was completed a year ago. Also as others have pointed out. The way they treated contributors to help with the effort was uncalled for and deserves comment.
I feel bad for darktable and others that suffered because of these very long update schedules.
You should take it up with them, then. They are not here. We are (forced into being) consumers of libraw only, we have no input into anything they do and they wonāt take PRs either. This is the way it has worked with libraw for as long as I can remember, so we wanted cr3 support so we deal with it.
None, but those donāt support cr3. There are also only like two or three other libraries that are anywhere close to what libraw supports.
All the best to you then. Iāve been in your shoes and made similar choices. At the time, I became frustrated with Darktableās speed and switched to Capture One for a year. When I later became fed up with that, Darktable was still there for me. It happened again, later on, with half a year of Lightroom. And yet again, I came back to Darktable eventually.
Ultimately I had various issues with all of these programs. UT with Darktable i could solve them, whereas Capture One and Lightroom and DxO couldnāt fix them. For instance, I donāt like Capture Oneās highlight rendering, and canāt change it. Then a performance bug made it unusable and forced me to leave. Their support could not resolve it. DxO does not support keyboard shortcuts, and apparently never will. And doesnāt support my phone pictures, and apparently never will. And I donāt like their highlight rendering, either. Lightroom IMO has an awful UI, and I donāt like how they do masked edits. They donāt have good keyboard shortcuts or negative inversions, but I could add them with payed plugins. Then a Lightroom update broke compatibility with two of my cameras (Pixel 6a camera profile and Ricoh GR III denoising) and their support for months claimed it was āthe manufacturerās faultā despite it working before the update. So I moved on. With Darktable, I had problems, too: I wanted smooth scrolling in the light table, so I added it with a pull request. I wanted film simulations, which I could create and integrate with darktable-chart and a Lua script. I changed the UI a bit with CSS tweaks, and added heavily customized keyboard shortcuts and a bespoke quick access panel. To say nothing of the fantastic auto-applied preset system. Another bug I reported, and it was promptly fixed. In the end, I was thus able to work around or fix all my problems with Darktable, whereas my issues with the commercial programs couldnāt be solved. I hope your journey wonāt be as fraught with problems as was mine.
If you ever feel the need to come back, Darktable will still be available to you as well. And by then, Iām sure your Canon RAWs will be supported, too.
I tried really hard to make that at least a 2-man show many years ago when said one man just took over the project from the original author but he made it very clear that heād rather be on his own back then.
Since LibRaw was added to darktable for the sole purpose of working around Romans total lack of response to the CR3 PR, their approach to deal with contributors would likely never have come up here and darktable would have supported CR3s for about 3 years now and the R5m2 for at least half a year.
I have not really checked his new rust port, so maybe he did now finally give this code some attention?
CR3 support is indeed present in rawler. But some other features are not (yet), and some specific camera models are not (yet). If you meant Romanās rawspeed.rs port, it still seems to be at its infancy, so not yet.
As I said, any of the options might look ābetterā from some specific aspect at any given point in time, but that is of course subject to change. Itās a whack-a-mole game unfortunately.
So, what is left to dt (or any other app) devs to do is to integrate all of these options simultaneously and try all of them in hope one will work for any given raw file. Good luck to anyone trying to that uniformly and maintain it.
ANY criticism of developers about the agenda to which they work on the product they develop for free is CRAP. Put some skin in the game, and MAYBE youāll get a say. So there.
That said, any still photography workflow is a collection of trades, objectives/constraints against the available tools. If youāre hell-bent on using the .CR3 format and you want to use software that doesnāt support it, either side should be fair game in the trade that gets you to actually making photographs. Cursory scan of the photography topology, I donāt see any single-sources in that regard.
Iām a long-time Nikon user, and some of their proprietary-ness vexes me. Lens correction in metadata for one, Iāve personally done a lot of digging on that one but there are still a few things I canāt divine with my little brain. Oh well, thank you Lensfun. If they totally abrogated their existing raw formats for some totally encrypted/encoded/obfuscated format, I wouldnāt be buying any more of their cameras, but for my remaining lifetime I can decode the three I already have with software I can control, so there, again.
If I were doing this professionally, Iād probably be in the commercial camp, because Iād want the ability to take my suppliers to task in keeping my workflow intact. Iād have skin in the game to do that with my cash, either with āfeedbackā to my current suppliers or source-selection from the market of available products. Hobby photography with FOSS products is a totally different dynamic; we are all lucky we have these complicated software gonkulators smart folk developed FOR FREE.
