RethinkRAW: a RAW photo editor built around Adobe DNG Converter

I went along and downloaded your files, and as far as I can see, everything is working as I expected it to work (which may, or may not, match your expectations).

So, if I download only the DNG, make some changes, and save them: changes get embed in the file, and the preview is updated.

But, if I download both the DNG and the XMP, and place them side-by-side, changes get saved to the XMP and the preview is not updated. There is a sidecar, the sidecar is for the DNG (if you open it, you can find photoshop:SidecarForExtension='dng'), so I use the sidecar.

Tags were not getting transferred into the JPEG, that is true. I’m now exporting Dublin Core metadata as well. Next beta should fix this. Thanks!

You really appreciate a hand in packaging it for Linux but I’ll be a bit blunt (as well as honest) and pose just one question: why?

  • Why would any Linux user want to convert their precious proprietary raw files which are already and will forever be recognized by any software that uses dcraw ([EDIT]or libraw) code to DNG? (I don’t even understand why Windows and Mac users would want that but I’ll let that one go for now.
  • Why would Linux users want to use Adobe compatible XMP sidecars if they do not use Adobe software for editing?
  • Why would Linux users compromise on using software which itself is not open and relies on an outside Adobe application which only runs under Wine?
  • Why would anyone purposely limit themselves to 8-bit files with low quality settings (you stated “8-bit sRGB JPEGs, no chroma subsampling, quality 8 (“High”, or 86%).”) - if you would want 8 bit wouldn’t one just shoot OOC jpeg to begin with?

I think your effort might be appreciated by some and I commend you for trying of course but on Linux? It does not tick any box AFAIC and its purpose confuses me.

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You have seen the qualifier “if anyone’s interested”? He is basically saying that he is open to collaboration to make it happen, if anyone else wishes. He isn’t demanding, not even asking for anything.

Why would I want DNG over proprietary raw? Sounds like “proprietary” was something positive. DNG is an open format, and if vendors were using it developers of OSS raw developers wouldn’t need to go through the trouble of reverse engineering whenever a new format comes out (see e.g. the exiv2/CR3 situation).

I don’t understand this knee jerk reaction to anything related to Adobe. Sure, it’s annoying that the majority of users keeps using an expensive lock-in software, that in some aspects is probably technically inferior to open alternatives. However reality is, it’s there, people are using it and will keep using it. Acting repulsive to anything related to that ecosystems means pushing away a whole lot of people (who might not even have a choice due to job/industry standards).

What I do share is the concern about lack of license, which makes this tool basically useless (users are dependent on you keeping it free and up-to-date, no-one could pick up the code and continue if you didn’t). If you are concerned about monetizing, go copyleft + commercial license. Or at the very least use something like CC BY-NC 3.0. Even though that’s still not free and problematic in some respects, at least it would be possible to modify your code and continue distributing it under the same license.

You have seen the qualifier “if anyone’s interested”? He is basically saying that he is open to collaboration to make it happen, if anyone else wishes. He isn’t demanding, not even asking for anything.

I noticed, just asking why. You disagree with me asking so the same question to you: why?

Why would I want DNG over proprietary raw? Sounds like “proprietary” was something positive.

It definitely IS something positive unless the DNG comes out of the camera itself instead of out of a converter. A proprietary raw (whether PEF,NEF,CR2 or any other) is a true immutable “digital negative” of an image, something which DNG promised to be but didn’t make good on.

DNG is an open format, and if vendors were using it developers of OSS raw developers wouldn’t need to go through the trouble of reverse engineering whenever a new format comes out (see e.g. the exiv2/CR3 situation).

But not every open format needs to be successful, does it? ODF is open but get ignored by millions of MsOffice users every day.

I don’t understand this knee jerk reaction to anything related to Adobe. Sure, it’s annoying that the majority of users keeps using an expensive lock-in software, that in some aspects is probably technically inferior to open alternatives.

I don’t give a rodent’s behind about people using “expensive lock-in software” (your words, not mine) and the only one having a knee-jerk reaction to Adobe seems to be your good self. I merely asked “Why would Linux users want to use Adobe compatible XMP sidecars if they do not use Adobe software for editing?” which is a perfect valid question - why don’t you answer it?

However reality is, it’s there, people are using it and will keep using it. Acting repulsive to anything related to that ecosystems means pushing away a whole lot of people (who might not even have a choice due to job/industry standards).

Hey man, I have zero problems with people using it if they want to. And just insulting be by accusing me of “acting repulsive” is really uncalled for. And “pushing away a whole lot of people” from what exactly? From using this guy’s software? Why would I do thàt?

What I do share is the concern about lack of license, which makes this tool basically useless (users are dependent on you keeping it free and up-to-date, no-one could pick up the code and continue if you didn’t). If you are concerned about monetizing, go copyleft + commercial license. Or at the very least use something like CC BY-NC 3.0. Even though that’s still not free and problematic in some respects, at least it would be possible to modify your code and continue distributing it under the same license.

See? And that is where I draw the line of believability. This guy has all the right to keep his software under wraps, there is absolutely nothing against that at all. I am not against using commercial software, provided it has a decent price, gets free bug- and security fixes and allows for a reasonably priced upgrade path. I have paid for and use NeatImage for Linux and thoroughly enjoy that software.

As I wrote many, many years ago to Gabor Horváth, the original author of the, then not-free, Rawtherapee converter:
I fully understand it is not brought out under the GPL. I would also understand and respect your right to say no to this request.
when I asked his permission to include RT on a Linux LiveCD (PCLOS DPE). He was gracious enough to allow it but also wrote back to me saying:
Thank you for the polite mail. These days I received lots of rough mails from open source partisans, at the end I felt they want to steal my intellectual property.”

That was on April 14th, 2008! So don’t come here, more than 12 years later, with guns blazing as if I were some kind of open-source vigilante, accusing me of “knee-jerk reaction” and “acting repulsive” because you can actually take a long hike!

I clearly misinterpreted your post to be negative respectively accusatory in nature - which you explained is not and on re-reading your post I see my mistake. I didn’t intend to accuse you of anything or offend you in any way either, but I clearly did - I am very sorry for that. I’ll try to respond now leaving out any judgement (and definitely without anything personal, I never intended it to be).

Because someone out there might have a use-case we collectively can’t imagine, and then it’s nice to know that the creator is open to collaboration.

It’s still a good thing though. And increasingly more accepted. At least I perceive it as such. A decade ago I was looked at bewildered when I explained that I am using it, last year I got an odf file sent to me and a whole lot of other people - from a very non-technical person (meaning likely no bubble-effect there :slight_smile: ).
Maybe DNG has resoundingly failed and isn’t just slow on adoption - I haven’t heard that though (admittedly not particularly involved either).

One contrived possibility (though again, the maybe-never-to-appear linux user will have a real one):
An adobe (not linux) user manages to convince a linux-using friend of the benefits of shooting RAW. They don’t know any linux tools, but this tool is close enough to adobe ones, that they can teach the linux friend how to use it.
It’s not about whether that’s a good use-case, sure that person would be better off with DT or RT, but it might be useful anyway.

I can only once again offer my apologies for the accusatory answer I directed at you. I do not believe that you are any kind of open-source vigilante. I do see and appreciate that you are a long-standing open-source proponent and thank you for that!

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Hi,

I think there is a bit of misconception here. From what I understood (and @ncruces please correct me if I’m wrong, and sorry in advance in case), this is Adobe Camera Raw in disguise (no disrespect, just stating the facts). As I understand it, RethinkRAW is a “shell” that allows to exploit the fact that the free-as-in-gratis Adobe DNG converter will take into account parameters specified in an XMP sidecar when generating embedded JPEG previews during the DNG conversion procedure. So, the tool offers a convenient way to exploit this, by adding a GUI to edit the XMP files and then calling the Adobe DNG converter automatically.

So, I see a couple of use cases for this:

  1. a Linux user that likes Adobe Camera Raw, but doesn’t want to install Windows and/or OSX to run Lightroom; or

  2. a Windows and/or Mac user that likes Adobe Camera Raw, but doesn’t want to pay for it.

The RethinkRAW tool offers a way to do both, at least in principle (I think running recent versions of the DNG converter from wine without firing up its GUI is not so easy anymore…).

For context, a similar idea was mentioned in this forum a while ago, here’s the post (which includes a proof-of-concept script that shows how this could be done):

(though RethinkRAW seems to push this much further)

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Yes, that’s basically what it does.

Also, to make it clear, as far as I’m aware, I’m not using any undocumented (or unlicensed) features of DNG Converter. The command line API (which I’m using) is documented here (the click through license is here). XMP and DNG are “open” standards, some of the Camera Raw tags are even documented, others are saved in plain text for all to see.

I use ExifTool for all of the metadata stuff, and much of the XMP editing. I use Dcraw to extract thumbnails, and to get RAW pixel data out of DNGs (which I only use for white balance math - this code was ported over from the DNG SDK).

I use a browser for the UI, so all that’s left is glue code for all of this.

PS: My use case for it, is “interoperability” with my wife which uses Photoshop. I don’t like Photoshop, or Lightroom. As I said above, I wish Adobe launched a standalone version of Camera Raw and saved me the trouble.

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I have no intention of monetizing this. The rational for the license set out above and here.

I’m simply not interested in building something that is primarily used to avoid Adobe license fees.

But I understand how the lack of an established license hinders contributers, so I’ll consider the CC NC licenses. I just wish they weren’t so incomprehensible.

No, you won’t :wink:. But that doesn’t matter, to me it is anyway a great piece of software. Perhaps one time you will get another zoom function to work, but anyway I like it and will use it.

Concerning the updating of the preview in the dng: It now works for me. Don’t know what was wrong. Thank your for the explanation on the different formats for exporting.

Concerning transfer of data: The keywords are not transfered. Look in the dng, there are two keywords: “Landschaft” and “Sonnenuntergang”. They don’t exist in the saved jpg anymore.

Yes, I saw that. It’s fixed in the code (I’m now copying at least one of those sets of metadata tags, Dublin Core).

Building and publishing a new release is not fully automated and takes a little time, but it’ll be in the next beta.

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Released a new version, should be fixed.

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After reviewing the options, I decided to waive the non-commercial requirement.
If this was preventing anyone from contributing, have at it.
License is MIT No Attribution.

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Great, thank you for the new build.

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Is RethinkRaw still under development? There was no release since January. Do you plan any enhancements?

I haven’t had much time for it, to be honest.

I’ve just released Beta 6 will all changes since January. Edge is better supported (at more or less the same level as Chrome/Chromium). I’ve added (very rudimentary) print ability. And there were a few fixes. Also, dependencies (ExifTool, etc) have been updated. But that’s pretty much it.

On the “roadmap” I have a couple of “big” features that might not be very interesting to others, but which are to me: “remote editing” (store photos in one device, edit from another) and Google Photos upload/sync. I’m a bit stuck on these, work gets in the way.

Thank you for continuing the development. I would very much like to use RethinkRaw more often. The biggest drawback is the quality of the saved file because you can’t work further on the compressed image. But RR offers the opportunity to export as dng. Wouldn’t it be possible to implement to save the result as demosaiced dng? The DNG converter offers this option and the result is much more like a tiff with which I could work further on.

Unfortunately a linear DNG only solves the demosaicing step, it does nothing in terms of white balancing, color grading, tone mapping, etc. I can add the option of exporting a linear DNG, but IMO that doesn’t help much.

So there is no chance at all to get more out of RT than the preview and the dng?

None that I can think of. Sorry.

Is the project still alive?