It’s only triggered if you have the workflow set to scene referred on the initial opening or if you reset the image but resetting will use V6 I believe…I wasn’t seeing it as I have the workflow set to none. I like to see the image without filmic. In that case when I would apply it the values for white and black were always the same for each image…
After comparing v5 vs v6 in a lot of images, I also prefer version 5 way a lot more than version 6.
Does someone know why v6 was developed? What should be theoretically better over v5?
It was developed in part as many people always complained about filmic being dull and too desaturated…
I seem to be missing this panel - please explain where/what it is. Google is not much help; it tells me: "Xilica’s XTouchApp enables users to control their device(s) using any Mac, Pac, iOS or Android device. ", none of which devices I have that also run dt.
I’ll join your opinion. Filmic RGB has not appropriate default settings and that’s why darktable produces bad results out of the box.
Here is an explanation of my thoughts. The default result should be either realistic or similar to in-camera jpg.
The realistic look can be easily convinced: just take a picture of some “permanent” close to your computer scene, process it and compare the look of the scene with the picture in darktable on a calibrated monitor with your eyes. The scene can be LDR to suit the most simple and common case.
This comparison is enough accurate as it uses the comparison (difference) method, which can exclude personal preferences on the look of a scene.
And the results from darktable with default settings have been non-realistic for some time. They look dull. They were dull with V4, V5 and V6. I had to make my preset to obtain realistic looking results.
Concerning V6. The most close-to-reality results with standard color matrix are:
Contrast 1.3
Latitude 50%
Extreme luminance saturation +100%
Target black luminance 0
Preserve chrominance: Luminance Y or RGB euclidean norm.
Both contrasts: safe
Exposure + 1.15
You know that you’re not forced to use filmic, right? You can even use base curve in place of that module (near the end of the pipeline). That may give results closer to the in-camera look.
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OK, so you used exactly 3 modules beyond the required basics:
- denoise
- exposure
- filmic
If that is indeed how you want to use darktable, the best solution might be indeed to switch to using the basecurve.
I use at least two other modules as a matter of course :
- color balance RGB to add saturation over the whole image
- diffuse and sharpen: demosaic sharpening
From there, often a seond copy of diffuse & sharpen for local contrast ,
tone equaliser, extra copies of color calibration, … as needed.
Your insistence on doing everything with filmic means that in your sample image, you completely crush the blacks (and whites, but there aren’t too many of those). Try this:
- color calibration : daylight 5500K
- filmic: contrast 1.00, black reference -5.9EV, white ref. +4.24EV
- diffuse & sharpen: “add local contrast” preset, increase iterations to 20 (or so; or use “local contrast module”)
- colour balance with “basic colorfulness: standard” preset.
And keep in mind that the scene was dull! very flat, diffuse light, so no shadows to give texture and depth.
Or perhaps I’m just wasting my time replying to a troll (
)
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Of course, I’m not . But it is obvious a program should produce good results out of the box. They can be either realistic or in-camera like, but not the ones they are now. That is not mine opinion, I share it with some other people who use darktable.
P.S. I’be been using darktable with my handmade color matrices and base curves, then Filmic and own style for a long time (from the beginning of the program). But it would be better to have appropriate results for a regular user.
I find filmic’s default look appropriate. Now, with the auto-tuner working better, it’s quite easy to adjust. Since v6, I find I often prefer the look of Luminance Y or no chroma preservation. Not as contrary as most the in-camera look, for sure.
Thanks for the hint with lower black reference. I’m now playing again with 200% increase of saturation at the edges.
P.S. I don’t think it is correct to enable 20% saturation increase in the other module (color balance RGB) all the time to get realistic results.
Hm, and I don’t. It is an easy way to judge - one can take a snapshot of some surrounding scene, import the image and process it, comparing the looks.
No, not necessarily so.
Fetch a bunch of ASCII-text into a DTP, and you do not expect a typographic masterpiece being created automagically…
Have fun!
Claes in Lund, Sweden
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Don’t you think it’s a reasonable goal to have the defaults result in something close* to what you see** with your eyes. (Taking into consideration the screen limitations and the chosen exposure, lens etc.)
‘’ * Obviously a moving target and up for discussion
‘’ ** See above
Discussions of ascii text, self mixed chemicals and home made photo paper can only result in living alone in the woods using only what you find.
I really disagree here about “being obvious and out of the box”.
dt tries to get out-of-the-box (or by default) to offer “something pretty good and easy to develop further”. Very short description maybe but that’s roughly how i understand what we dt devs want to achieve.
(Keep in mind, this is a raw developer program and not your camera jpeg firmware - i remember from days when i used jpegs i tuned preferences in camera for contrast, sharpening or color mode to get what i liked best)
On my daily used camera raw images i only use exposure, some contrast and maybe crop and am pretty fine then to a) check for being good enough or delete/reject immediately, b) keep as is or mark for further work or c) go straight into heavy dt work because it’s a really good (lucky) shot. That’s by using dt defaults in scene mode btw.
Do i use any special presets or styles? Just a few
- high iso selects lmmse demosaicer and denoising
- b/w images (if the camera generated a b&w preview or jpeg) use presets for tone equalizer and color calibration to stay monochrome.
- i dislike the clipped highlights so something special here too. BTW, the default here is a compromise for good-out-of-the-box already…
That’s it for me
About filmic’s color science, there is certainly room for further improvements. Right now i mostly have problems with blown-out highlights
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But that is how the designers meant it to work… filmic is carefully designed to do nothing to colour, which is handled seperately in color balance rgb. So it is correct, IMO.
It is arguable from two reasons. The first is historical - it always has been enough to have color profile which was responsible for accurate colors and base curve which was responsible for contrast (color contrast too). Then the filmic RGB took the role of the basic curve and managed colors by itself, as the base curve made in the past. And since V6 it happens its heritage color functionality is transferred to another independent non-dedicated module. Default functionality. By default I mean the “natural looking” scene out of the box.
If such exclusion of color managing functionality is required by design (I doubt, but it can be), the Color balance RGB module should be enabled by default with natural settings. For now filmic RGB is enabled, and color balance RGB, which is required by filmic, isn’t.
P.S. Default settings should be usable for the most of cases. It is a common practice and it is assumed in all RAW processing programs, including bilt-in-camera ones.
I’m still a newbie, but as far as I understood it from AP in his posts and videos, the philosophy of his modules is to do one thing good and wihtout side effects. What you define as historical reason is something that, as far I understood, he explicity was against to.
From the manual: Filmic does tonal range management. It protects colors and contrast in the mid-tones.
For color constrast you can use color calibration and/or color balance rgb.
You can use your default settings with the modules that you want to use by default. I have a default setting that will be applied automaticaly for my camera. I have also other setttings that can be applied with shortcuts.
As someone said in another thread, darktable is not like other RAW processing programs. It has it’s own philosophy.
But anyway, maybe some other more experienced member can give you a better answer
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