Warning: auto-selected neutral patch (D02) [...]

Processing
22

Using -F to point to the check-marks seems a last effort resort, at least for me. Although it is rather nice to know that this can be done. Figuring them out, using GIMP, seems a bit of a pain.

I’m not at all intimidated by rawtherapees (manual) perspective correction process and noticed that I get rather good results, better then the automated one, which is too often rejected by the scanin command.

About the 24 vs 50 patches: I don’t have the experience yet to say that the created dcp file will be (significantly due to the 8 saturation patches?) different, but I’m guessing that scanin will be even more finicky when using 50 instead of 24 patches.

The steps I describe work for me at the moment so I’m going to stick to that and figure out if I can fine-tune/optimize this process.

23

I must say once I sorted out which way I had to orient the target I have never had all these issues with my spyderchecker 24. I wonder if your cht files are a bit off or something like that??

24

I think here you have the camera profile applied when you show it in RT but the reference image is saved before that is added to I think setting that to none would look more like what your saved tiff would look like in another app…ie more like the diag.tiff …much darker…

25

This is what the saved tif looks like when using Save Reference image (again, converted to jpg for viewing pleasure):

rt.asref
rt.asref1920×1370 393 KB

And this is what it looks like using dcraw (and cropped in rawtherapee):

dcraw.and.pers.crop
dcraw.and.pers.crop1920×1370 397 KB

Not much difference, the rt version might even be a tad darker.

This from RawPedia about using Save Reference image:

Clicking the “Save Reference Image” button saves a linear TIFF image before the input profile is applied.

So, changing the Input Profile doesn’t change anything when saving this way.

26

No sorry I meant when you display it in RT as in the screen shot it will be using the camera profile to show the result in the display with the camera profile added and so that would be what would be a bit different than what gets saved using that option…the results you show are what I would expect in the saved image for sure…I was just commenting that setting it to none might make the displayed image a better match for the saved one for the purposes of your screenshot…no big deal I agree you are creating a perfectly valid input image…It funny looking back now that when I created the tiff in DT using the suggested pass thru method and in RT using the save reference the tiff files would show differently one was much darker I can’t recall but checking with xnview I could see that one had and embedded profile and one did not…again I can’t recall which was which without going back and running through it…

27

Yeah, I know that that what is shown doesn’t correspond with what it saved.

The problem is that everything else might look good in rt but when exporting it it isn’t accepted by scanin and/or dcamprof. Look at the replies by Entropy512 and Thanatomanic. This is a known issue (see github entry mentioned) and is being worked on/evaluated.

28

Out of ignorance and curiosity would the DT method work in RT?? Set all the profiles to the same linear color space and export…would you get the same pass-thru as in DT??

29

That used to be the case, or seemed to me last time I tried it, but it’s been a while. @Thanatomanic had issues (they’re pretty obvious in the examples he posted) - It might be due to setting Abstract Profile to Linear instead of None. I’ll try a few experiment revisits tonight… Well if I remember after I finish dinner. :slight_smile:

Reference TIFFs are saved properly, but lack an ICC profile that tags them as being linear. This causes problems if you need to do any subsequent tweaking - not necessary if you’re REALLY good with the crop and PC tools, but necessary if you are profiling a fixed-lens fisheye device such as a singleshot 360 camera. (I filed that issue after my adventurs in profiling a Mi Sphere). Morgan’s response was that the Reference Tiff feature may no longer be necessary, so the discussion Roel and I were having was regarding reproducing the Reference Tiff functionality using existing settings in RT other than the RefTiff button.

30

Not that I know of. Some color space conversions are deeply rooted and hard-coded and not easy to bypass otherwise.

31

Just thought I would suggest it as that is how you create the source file in DT, ie set all the profiles the same…

32

What todd suggests is exactly what I recall @Morgan_Hardwood suggesting in discussion of 5575

See RT_ProfileReference – Google Drive

pp3 is attached - d50_refimage is the result of saving the reference image from RT and then using exiftool to tag it with an sRGB linear profile (the same one used as output profile for the other image). DSC01783.tif is saved as follows:
Start with Neutral
Crop
Set Camera Profile to None
Disable White Balance
Set Working Profile to sRGB
Set Output Profile to an sRGB linear profile generated by the ICC generator tool
and I think this is the key difference between what I and @Thanatomanic did - do NOT set Abstract Profile to anything, leave it at None

33

When following your procedure @Entropy512 I also get identical files. So that’s good.

However, I get different DCPs when using DCamProf+dcptool with the “Save reference tiff” files compared to the manually exported files. Just to show, this is the data in my daylight-ref.json file and my daylight-manual.json file:

{
  "CalibrationIlluminant1": "D50",
  "CalibrationIlluminantWhitepoint1": [ 0.964218, 1.000000, 0.825202 ],
  "CalibrationIlluminantSpectrum1": {
    "bands": [ 300, 305, 310, 315, 320, 325, 330, 335, 340, 345, 350, 355, 360, 365, 370, 375, 380, 385, 390, 395, 400, 405, 410, 415, 420, 425, 430, 435, 440, 445, 450, 455, 460, 465, 470, 475, 480, 485, 490, 495, 500, 505, 510, 515, 520, 525, 530, 535, 540, 545, 550, 555, 560, 565, 570, 575, 580, 585, 590, 595, 600, 605, 610, 615, 620, 625, 630, 635, 640, 645, 650, 655, 660, 665, 670, 675, 680, 685, 690, 695, 700, 705, 710, 715, 720, 725, 730, 735, 740, 745, 750, 755, 760, 765, 770, 775, 780, 785, 790, 795, 800, 805, 810, 815, 820, 825, 830],
    "spectrum": [ 0.0002, 0.0103, 0.0205, 0.0491, 0.0778, 0.1126, 0.1475, 0.1635, 0.1795, 0.1948, 0.2101, 0.2248, 0.2394, 0.2545, 0.2696, 0.2572, 0.2449, 0.2718, 0.2987, 0.3959, 0.4931, 0.5291, 0.5651, 0.5827, 0.6003, 0.5893, 0.5782, 0.6632, 0.7482, 0.8104, 0.8725, 0.8893, 0.9061, 0.9099, 0.9137, 0.9324, 0.9511, 0.9354, 0.9196, 0.9384, 0.9572, 0.9617, 0.9661, 0.9687, 0.9713, 0.9961, 1.021, 1.0143, 1.0075, 1.0154, 1.0232, 1.0116, 1, 0.9887, 0.9774, 0.9833, 0.9892, 0.9621, 0.935, 0.9559, 0.9769, 0.9848, 0.9927, 0.9916, 0.9904, 0.9738, 0.9572, 0.9729, 0.9886, 0.9726, 0.9567, 0.9693, 0.9819, 1.006, 1.03, 1.0107, 0.9913, 0.9326, 0.8738, 0.8949, 0.916, 0.9225, 0.9289, 0.8487, 0.7685, 0.8168, 0.8651, 0.8955, 0.9258, 0.854, 0.7823, 0.6796, 0.5769, 0.7031, 0.8292, 0.806, 0.7827, 0.7891, 0.7955, 0.7648, 0.734, 0.6866, 0.6392, 0.6735, 0.7078, 0.7261, 0.7444]
  },
  "ColorMatrix1": [
    [  0.953643, -0.357004, -0.072950 ],
    [ -0.410386,  1.186187,  0.254533 ],
    [ -0.046335,  0.106714,  0.637365 ]
  ],
  "ForwardMatrixWhitebalance1": [ 0.499151, 1.000000, 0.582782 ],
  "ForwardMatrix1": [
    [  0.644143,  0.220560,  0.099516 ],
    [  0.239640,  0.870732, -0.110373 ],
    [  0.036089, -0.215518,  1.004631 ]
  ],
  "LUTMatrix1": [
    [  0.626814,  0.135945,  0.201459 ],
    [  0.232020,  0.706120,  0.061860 ],
    [  0.000100,  0.025139,  0.799963 ]
  ],
  "ChromaLUT1": {
    "compressFactor": 0.7,
    "regularization": [ -1, 0, 0 ],
    "uvL": [  ],
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    "uvV": [ 0.256148, 0.504179, 0.0011865, 0.187008, 0.449138, 0, 0.19844, 0.524683, 0.00178746, 0.214899, 0.450446, -0.00543219, 0.165943, 0.490223, 0.0010432, 0.306306, 0.531742, 0.000908274, 0.184855, 0.393146, -0.00373736, 0.338988, 0.497041, 0, 0.256623, 0.437941, -0.00857786, 0.196888, 0.543592, 0, 0.269275, 0.540513, 0, 0.179094, 0.363154, -0.0175786, 0.16041, 0.535649, 0, 0.371901, 0.507395, 0, 0.24033, 0.54559, 0, 0.308669, 0.459602, -0.00154956, 0.15245, 0.444038, -0.0006, 0.0114541, 0.634127, 0, 0.00231812, 0.533935, 0, 0.00848991, 0.494405, 0, 0.0146605, 0.454884, 0, 0.0208311, 0.415363, 0, 0.0270017, 0.375841, 0, 0.0331724, 0.33632, 0, 0.039343, 0.296799, 0, 0.0455136, 0.257278, 0, 0.0516843, 0.217757, 0, 0.0580652, 0.176958, 0, 0.0699159, 0.121943, 0, 0.148955, 0.0392372, 0, 0.248142, 0.0763825, 0, 0.282411, 0.107113, 0, 0.312059, 0.133969, 0, 0.341706, 0.160823, 0, 0.371352, 0.187679, 0, 0.40104, 0.214572, 0, 0.430708, 0.241526, 0, 0.460316, 0.268459, 0, 0.489905, 0.295376, 0, 0.519494, 0.322292, 0, 0.549083, 0.349208, 0, 0.578775, 0.376219, 0, 0.612743, 0.407657, 0, 0.656642, 0.514155, 0, 0.566022, 0.5845, 0, 0.521661, 0.595231, 0, 0.482741, 0.604467, 0, 0.440656, 0.614385, 0, 0.397829, 0.621013, 0, 0.358143, 0.626991, 0, 0.318529, 0.632925, 0, 0.278934, 0.638832, 0, 0.239363, 0.644727, 0, 0.199609, 0.650648, 0, 0.159327, 0.65645, 0, 0.118084, 0.661855, 0, 0.00348584, 0.640169, 0, -0.00756235, 0.532394, 0, -0.00139039, 0.492863, 0, 0.00478023, 0.453341, 0, 0.0109508, 0.41382, 0, 0.0171214, 0.374299, 0, 0.0232921, 0.334778, 0, 0.0294627, 0.295256, 0, 0.0356333, 0.255735, 0, 0.041804, 0.216214, 0, 0.0482112, 0.175255, 0, 0.0606124, 0.118276, 0, 0.14686, 0.029459, 0, 0.254278, 0.068486, 0, 0.289125, 0.0997017, 0, 0.318773, 0.126557, 0, 0.348419, 0.153412, 0, 0.378066, 0.180268, 0, 0.407759, 0.207166, 0, 0.437434, 0.234126, 0, 0.467045, 0.261062, 0, 0.496634, 0.287978, 0, 0.526223, 0.314895, 0, 0.555812, 0.341811, 0, 0.585517, 0.368834, 0, 0.620044, 0.400824, 0, 0.666304, 0.516731, 0, 0.569011, 0.594043, 0, 0.52397, 0.604961, 0, 0.48505, 0.614197, 0, 0.44257, 0.6242, 0, 0.399331, 0.630899, 0, 0.359629, 0.63688, 0, 0.320007, 0.642815, 0, 0.280409, 0.648722, 0, 0.240836, 0.654618, 0, 0.201059, 0.660543, 0, 0.160691, 0.666357, 0, 0.11925, 0.671787, 0, -0.0044824, 0.646211, 0, -0.0174428, 0.530852, 0, -0.0112707, 0.49132, 0, -0.00510006, 0.451799, 0, 0.00107053, 0.412277, 0, 0.00724115, 0.372756, 0, 0.0134118, 0.333235, 0, 0.0195824, 0.293714, 0, 0.025753, 0.254193, 0, 0.0319237, 0.214671, 0, 0.0383572, 0.173553, 0, 0.0513089, 0.11461, 0, 0.144766, 0.0196809, 0, 0.260413, 0.0605894, 0, 0.295838, 0.09229, 0, 0.325486, 0.119146, 0, 0.355133, 0.146001, 0, 0.384779, 0.172856, 0, 0.414478, 0.19976, 0, 0.444161, 0.226727, 0, 0.473774, 0.253665, 0, 0.503363, 0.280581, 0, 0.532952, 0.307498, 0, 0.562541, 0.334414, 0, 0.592259, 0.361448, 0, 0.627345, 0.393991, 0, 0.675966, 0.519308, 0, 0.572, 0.603586, 0, 0.526279, 0.614691, 0, 0.487358, 0.623927, 0, 0.444483, 0.634015, 0, 0.400833, 0.640786, 0, 0.361114, 0.646769, 0, 0.321485, 0.652705, 0, 0.281883, 0.658613, 0, 0.242309, 0.664508, 0, 0.202509, 0.670437, 0, 0.162054, 0.676264, 0, 0.120416, 0.681719, 0, 0.20916, 0.488074, 0 ]
  }
}

{
  "CalibrationIlluminant1": "D50",
  "CalibrationIlluminantWhitepoint1": [ 0.964218, 1.000000, 0.825202 ],
  "CalibrationIlluminantSpectrum1": {
    "bands": [ 300, 305, 310, 315, 320, 325, 330, 335, 340, 345, 350, 355, 360, 365, 370, 375, 380, 385, 390, 395, 400, 405, 410, 415, 420, 425, 430, 435, 440, 445, 450, 455, 460, 465, 470, 475, 480, 485, 490, 495, 500, 505, 510, 515, 520, 525, 530, 535, 540, 545, 550, 555, 560, 565, 570, 575, 580, 585, 590, 595, 600, 605, 610, 615, 620, 625, 630, 635, 640, 645, 650, 655, 660, 665, 670, 675, 680, 685, 690, 695, 700, 705, 710, 715, 720, 725, 730, 735, 740, 745, 750, 755, 760, 765, 770, 775, 780, 785, 790, 795, 800, 805, 810, 815, 820, 825, 830],
    "spectrum": [ 0.0002, 0.0103, 0.0205, 0.0491, 0.0778, 0.1126, 0.1475, 0.1635, 0.1795, 0.1948, 0.2101, 0.2248, 0.2394, 0.2545, 0.2696, 0.2572, 0.2449, 0.2718, 0.2987, 0.3959, 0.4931, 0.5291, 0.5651, 0.5827, 0.6003, 0.5893, 0.5782, 0.6632, 0.7482, 0.8104, 0.8725, 0.8893, 0.9061, 0.9099, 0.9137, 0.9324, 0.9511, 0.9354, 0.9196, 0.9384, 0.9572, 0.9617, 0.9661, 0.9687, 0.9713, 0.9961, 1.021, 1.0143, 1.0075, 1.0154, 1.0232, 1.0116, 1, 0.9887, 0.9774, 0.9833, 0.9892, 0.9621, 0.935, 0.9559, 0.9769, 0.9848, 0.9927, 0.9916, 0.9904, 0.9738, 0.9572, 0.9729, 0.9886, 0.9726, 0.9567, 0.9693, 0.9819, 1.006, 1.03, 1.0107, 0.9913, 0.9326, 0.8738, 0.8949, 0.916, 0.9225, 0.9289, 0.8487, 0.7685, 0.8168, 0.8651, 0.8955, 0.9258, 0.854, 0.7823, 0.6796, 0.5769, 0.7031, 0.8292, 0.806, 0.7827, 0.7891, 0.7955, 0.7648, 0.734, 0.6866, 0.6392, 0.6735, 0.7078, 0.7261, 0.7444]
  },
  "ColorMatrix1": [
    [  0.926766, -0.327682, -0.077407 ],
    [ -0.406383,  1.175448,  0.262975 ],
    [ -0.053887,  0.111218,  0.641082 ]
  ],
  "ForwardMatrixWhitebalance1": [ 0.499024, 1.000000, 0.583070 ],
  "ForwardMatrix1": [
    [  0.638761,  0.224135,  0.101322 ],
    [  0.243657,  0.871083, -0.114739 ],
    [  0.040118, -0.212694,  0.997778 ]
  ],
  "LUTMatrix1": [
    [  0.627036,  0.126323,  0.210859 ],
    [  0.274466,  0.660558,  0.064976 ],
    [  0.000271,  0.004110,  0.820821 ]
  ],
  "ChromaLUT1": {
    "compressFactor": 0.7,
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  }
}

I am under the impression that generating DCPs is a deterministic process, but I’m not 100% sure. So something is still different?

Edit: just to add, the json files I get when I assign the linear ICC profile to the reference tiffs and run those through dcamprof and dcptool, are identical to those without assigning the linear profile and using the reference tiffs.

34

It could be down to simply different demosaicing (I’d have to see what reftiff selects) or a slight difference in the raw preproc settings.

The differences between the two TIFFS are minimal - you’re probably going to see things such as minor lighting errors in the test setup and camera noise make more difference.

Although if we want to get extra paranoid - I can’t see any setting in the UI that is named “Auto Contrast” - but the demosaic() method in rawimagesource has an autoContrast parameter - it appears to somehow be related to capture sharpening which is disabled.

The one difference may be that something in the Exposure tab might have altered the data slightly? The Exposure tab gets ignored in save reftiff, but does get used for how I saved the other tiff. I’ve got it set to no EC and linear curve, and the profile settings SHOULD have meant that “clip out of gamut colors” is a no-op, but perhaps there’s a subtle effect here. EDIT: There’s some “auto” checkbox under “clip out of gamut” that could have rendered it not a no-op - so I resaved with that explicitly unchecked. I uploaded DSC01874-1.tif with this change to the same folder. I won’t have time to check to see whether the md5sum was altered by different image data or something else though.

Tagging with an ICC profile vs. not making no difference makes sense to me - I’m pretty sure dcamprof, assumes data is linear and doesn’t even look at the ICC profile.

FYI, in general if I want to see if images have identical data even if they look different in a color managed app, I use imagemagick’s display command - it isn’t color managed at all, so lets you determine if two images look different but have same data (profile difference for same data) or look same but have different data (different profiles and different data, but same input when generating image)