Advice about Canon vs *the others*

Appreciate all the participation for my problem, I hope the discussion might benefit others also. Gonna heart you all :slight_smile:

Lots of stuff to dig in, what a great site, thx for that :+1: Will definitely look more into the data!
50D vs 80D thats exactly my experience - just minimal progress (sensor wise). And that’s my dissapointment, as I was hoping for a generational jump, I mean, thats about 10y of development between the models, I think.

Thanks for taking the time to comment! But I have already lots of gear (talking about 2 canon bodies, a bridge cam, about 10 lenses in varying quality - best one being a sigma art 24-70 f2.8 but also EF-S lenses, and more).
So, it’s less a problem of choosing gear.

It’s more of a: Is the gras greener on the other side, or does it only look so?

Therefore I’m really thankful for the responses from people, who went to the other side and share their findings (@ggbutcher, @123sg, @darix) and the stats on @g-man s website, which allow a more objective view of the situation.

Thanks for the advice. Very helpful, as the fuji system seems very appealing to me.

That all said, I’m not in the need to change anything. :man_shrugging: But its either way very helpful to plan my trajectory for the next years.

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Primarily landscape photography.

My wife and I did a lot of traveling when we were younger, we took in a lot of national parks.

Now we’re older and retired so while I still love photography I’m not taking as many photos now. The ones I do take are about every day life where we live and the M50 works great for that, plus it’s much smaller than those big full frame cameras.

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I’d say not as much as it looks.:wink: But I don’t have anything current/recent so…

Good luck!

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That definitely makes sense. The thing is, when I look into the 50D and the 80D pictures, I don’t see much difference regarding dynamic range or “sharpness”. And that is about 10y of development. Even the newer 90D doesn’t provide a better dynamic range according to @g-man s website. So, there doesn’t seem to be that much progress on the Canon side - or I’m looking into the wrong models, maybe?

On the other side (the greener one :wink:), I see the pictures like this


https://discuss.pixls.us/t/robin-by-the-thorns/33779

Here I can add +4 EV and its just fine (quality wise) :exploding_head: Would not be possible with my 80D. I think it was taken with a X-T3, which also has just a crop sensor.

For comparison, here is an image from my 80D, where I tried the +4EV trick:


(please don’t share)

I was kinda dissapointed with the noise level, when I saw the image in the darkroom.

But I can’t rule out, that it’s all just in my mind. (Would be the cheapest outcome of this, for sure :wink: )

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Maybe not the kind of answer as it’s just technical data but to compare SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio) (noise/ISO) between camera sensors, the DXOmark database is useful I think especially in the context of your demand.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/

To be noted that it compares the SNR is “per pixel” and that a higher pixel count sensor with the same ISO/noise performance will produce an as intense but finer noise wish is less detrimental to the overhaull image quality.

For comparison :

  • Lumix GH1 12mpx 772iso to reach targeted SNR threshold in the test
  • Canon 50D 15mpx 696iso " "
  • Canon 80D 24mpx 1135iso " "
  • Sony a7 24mpx 2248iso " "
  • Sony a7 III 42mpx 3523iso " "

The database will also give you release date and msrp wich can be used to “guesstimate 2nd hand price” to narrow your search.

Personally I switched from Lumix-GH1 (m4/3 12mpx rated 772iso to the SNR threshold in dxomark) to an Sony A-7 (full-frame 24mpx rated 2248iso to the same SNR threshold) using the same vintae lenses via adapters so the upgrade was quite dramatic !

On some play raws I found out that the a7-III was particulary good at the “picture hidden in the dark” game but it is not in the same league as a 80d or an a7 in term of price …

In my case this is by using this tools (and dpreview to check other features) that I ended up buying my A7 2nd hand for 250€ 2years ago.

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This is really interesting stuff @clind thanks especially for sharing your personal story. I will certainly look into this data and do some comparisons.

The price level is not that important, if I’m sure of the direction I’m going. Yeah 5000+ cameras are out of scope, but if a good 2nd hand body was too pricey, I’d fund it by selling one of my lenses (I have spare ones, which i’m currently not using anymore).

A while ago I switched from an old Nikon DSLR to Fuji. To me, the reduced size and weight was a proper revelation. It allowed me to take a camera to the playground with my then-toddler daughter. It allowed me to capture intimate moments that my DSLR was simply too cumbersome for. In time, I also found the well-rounded ecosystem of native lenses very useful.

That being said, I don’t think the technical quality of my photos improved measurably from the transition. My pictures are still digital raw files that process like any other. But of course I could now take pictures of many situations hitherto impossible.

Later on, I also tried a micro-four-thirds system, a Sony full-frame system, and various others. While there were technical differences in their images, they really aren’t important. Any difference in “color science” is easily overcome in processing.

What counts (to me) is the physicality of the body and lenses. The size and weight and availability of the kind of gear you like. Whether you like an APS-C mirrorless system like Fuji or Sony is really up to you. There are no right or wrong answers.

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Interesting read, @bastibe

This is also important for me, I’m realizing as I read this - looking at my 1 kg+ sigma art lens -

Yeah, darktable definitely evens many differences out.

So, currently you are using the x-t3 (I saw in the play raw section)? Or rather multiple cams as per situation, I guess…

I have, in fact, accrued three “weight classes” of cameras:

  • A Ricoh GR III, when no photography is expected. Perfect at the restaurant, in the grocery store, on a run, on the commute. Fits in a pants pocket. This is actually a bit of a “super power” for getting unique photos, as you can take pictures whenever wherever, especially where they’re least expected.
  • A Fuji X-Pro2 with a prime lens (23 or 35) as my “small” setup. I carry this on a sling whenever we go for a walk, to the playground, or similar. Especially paired with the Ricoh GR, this is surprisingly flexible, and unobtrusive enough to carry more or less anywhere. You could go a bit smaller with, say, a Fuji X-E4, X100, or Sony A6600. But when I did, it didn’t make a huge difference on the sling, and I prefer the bigger body (and weather sealing).
  • A Fuji X-T3 with one or two zoom lenses as my “big” setup. Sometimes in fact two cameras two lenses, for explicitly photographic excursions. At this point, I’m carrying a backpack or messenger bag for all the gear, and feel a bit ridiculous. Still, hiking with an X-T3 with the 16-80 and 70-300 is a supremely capable and relatively compact landscape system.

I am very happy with this system, maximalist as it may be. On a recent vacation with a Nikonite with a D850, the 100-500, and 24-70, my gear looked comparatively tiny. And I could take pictures at the restaurant and while driving the car, which he could not. I have in fact tried bigger/heavier lenses as well, but the differences in capability weren’t worth the increased bulk to me.

That said, there’s nothing much Fuji-specific about this gear. A similar setup could be built on MFT, Sony APS-C, or Canon M. Perhaps nowadays even a full frame mirrorless setup wouldn’t be that much bigger. But I do strongly believe that access to a smaller system has afforded me myriad opportunities that bigger gear precluded.

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Appreciate this detailed description of your cameras and their purpose!
Thank you.

Disclaimer: I’m often first in line to do some Canon-bashing.

That being said , the recent cameras have sensors that perform very well compared to the competition, and they don’t deserve to be laughed anymore .

The previous canon era , they were HORRIBLE for shadow boosting . The whole ettr movement came from their cameras , while it’s a bad idea in general.
The sensors in Canons started to be ‘closer’ to the competition from around the 5d mark 4 (and I believe 1dx in front of it ). That means that basically everything from the 1000/2000d line , the whole hundreds line (up to the 850d i think) and all the known classics (like the 7d , 5d mark 2 and mark 3, etc…) are NOTORIOUS for their shadow noise , at every ISO , even base iso.

That makes boosting the shadows an affair several steps behind their peers for all those years. They kept using an analog preamp circuit before converting the signal to digital , which added noise.

The 6d mark2 is one of the more modern canons , which still use the old sensor design , and also have this issue.

A lot of the eos-m line is actually quite ok, and basically everything from the eos-r line is fine or even more than fine.

Now, there are more aspects what make a camera good besides shadow boosting. And Canon did a lot right. But sensor noise, they didn’t .

Also, modern cameras can often take a 4ev exposure boost in post without any noise disadvantage. But you got to remember , this is for base iso! Or at least the lower ISOs .

If i take a shot at iso 1600, then take one with every parameter the same except iso 100. I can safely boost that iso100 shot to the same brightness as the iso1600 one, without increasing (sensor) noise. And that means you capture more highlight detail , because your shot-exposure was lower.

But, don’t go expecting to take a iso1600 shot, and boost it by 4ev or 5ev and have the same clean effect ! That iso1600 shot already contains sensor noise which you’ll boost more. Or the camera already did the 'shoot at lower iso and boost in software '-trick automatically .

Modern cameras with dual native ISOs are interesting , because sticking to one of the two base ISOs gives you good results. If you have a camera with a base iso 100 and a dual one at iso2500, shooting at iso 2500 might give you cleaner results than shooting iso 1600 :).

Also, this whole talk is about sensor noise . There are more kinds of noise in a (digital) camera. Light photon 'shot noise ’ being one of them , and the sensor tech won’t do anything about that.
Which in a nutshell means , that the faster your shutterspeed , the more noise the image will have , however good your sensor is or whatever the other settings were .

Technically , Canons shadow noise started to become better when they integrated the preamp into the sensor , like other designs have been doing for some time while Canon still wasn’t.

As a general crude rule of thumb : the canon SLRs have the old design , the mirrorless cameras have the newer design. This isn’t entirely true as explained before (there are some eos-d cameras with an integrated preamp like to 5d Mk4 , and there are some eos-m cameras with an older sensor i believe ).

If you are in a region where Canon names their cameras ‘rebel’ or something like that , you have to look up the names because i only know the ‘normal’ names.

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Thanks for giving me a historical background, this explains a lot. I will have a look into the EOS-R world, here seems to be the Canon progress I was searching.

Again, thanks for all the participation, I have learned many new things :pray:

Next step for me will be, to get rid of some unused lenses, to fund me a new body. It will probably a mirrorless APS-C body. I will look especially into the X-T4/H2, but also into the Canon R7 (maybe also a Sony equivalent).
Then I’m going to decide, when an upgrade is really worthwhile. The resources you guys posted will be really handy!

Perhaps consider one of the smaller Fujis if you go that route. An X-T30 or X-E3 is in most regards almost indistinguishable from the more modern bodies, but rather less expensive and smaller. The main thing you give up is IBIS, but with fast lenses or stabilized zooms, that’s not a big issue.

That way you get to capitalize on the smallness, while you still have a perfectly usable big system.

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It is my understanding that switching to mirrorless does not really reduce the size / weight of lenses – but I have no experience with those. Are the modern lenses lighter (when the sensor size is the same)? So, does a modern APS-C 18-135 or full-frame 28-70 weigh less than their old DSLR counterparts?

I’ve been looking at m4/3 because the smaller sensor also needs smaller lenses, but even those can be quite heavy. The Oly 12-100 (24 - 200 eq.) weighs 561 g, a Nikon 18-140 (27 - 210 eq) 490 g (yes, the Oly is an f/4 lens, while the Nikon is f/3.5-5.6, or a stop slower, but the larger sensor also gathers more light).

In addition to the Nikon D7000, I have a small Panasonic LX7, too. I tried to use it without an electronic viewfinder (with the screen only), but on walks, with strong sunlight, it was simply unusable. So, I bought a viewfinder, and the camera is still light, but no longer really compact, given how much the viewfinder protrudes. I’ve been thinking about a Canon G1x III, which is just 400 g (the LX7 with the viewfinder weighs 341 g).

While perhaps technically correct, mirrorless lenses are on average more modern. Modern lenses tend to be smaller, due to computer-aided design innovations, and cheaper modern aspherics. There are additional mirrorless advantages, too: they can natively rely on digital distortion/aberration/vignetting corrections, and don’t need to worry about looking perfect optically. This can open avenues for optimizations unavailable to DSLR designs.

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How come those are unavailable for DSLR lenses? You mean lens correction data embedded in the EXIF? Is that so much superior to lensfun profiles?

BTW, I’ve just checked, and the Fuji 18-135 weighs 490 g - same as the Nikon 18-140.

Because DSLR lenses must look correct while looking through the optical viewfinder. Some distortion is acceptable in the viewfinder, but if it’s too much it looks too different from the resulting picture. Mirrorless can correct distortion digitally between sensor and display/viewfinder, so that’s less of a consideration.

Fuji is not known for their small and light zooms, regrettably. At least they’re by and large well-constructed and weather sealed. Canon M probably has the lightest 18-150 on the market, and Sony’s and Nikon’s aren’t bad, either.

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From my part, this was more of a side note. Getting rid of this beast shall be my next quest!

A bit of background: this lens (Sigma Art 24-70 f/2.8 OS HSM blibblub) has a nice zoom range (for me) and my hope was, it could also have a nice sharpness (considering the amount of glass in there). But actually it is just double the weight, and less sharp then my sigma 17-50 f/2.8… so the lens is just laying here, gathering dust.
While using the art lens, I realized, that this is to heavy for me - even if the image quality was better.

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