in every dt edit the first image has inch-black shadows, this is due to filmic and the way it handles “oog” colors (I’ve used a manual filmic log+level+curve for preventing this)
extreme discoloration in the second image (again filmic is the culprit)
overall low contrast compared to all the other raw editors, while this is more subjective we need to activate the dt local contrast module in order to have the same “perceived local contrast” in the other raw editors.
I absolutely agree that filmics standard settings sometimes are a bit off, especially concerning color hue shifts. In its standard settings it simply can’t fit for every image or every camera. We had a lot of lengthy and heated discussions about that, don’t we ? . With a bit af tweaking nonetheless its a flexible tool.
Can you explain a bit how you do that ?
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Edit: Uploaded correct basecurve example
Certainly not every edit. Between ‘tone equaliser’, ‘filmic’ black relative slider, and slider for blacks in ‘exposure’ module, it really is not too difficult to get shadow detail in darktable. I’m one who likes to see detail in shadows, so I wouldn’t use darktable if it couldn’t be done.
I agree filmic can sometimes cause discoloratioon or hue shifts (its why I’m looking forward to the sigmoid curve with its ‘hue preservation’ option). However, in regards to the basketball image posted by Alessandro, it looks more like a white balance problem. Compare the court lines between the two edits. If it is indeed filmic causing that, then its settings need to be better adjusted by user.
Definitely subjective. I never have a problem with contrast, despite rarely bumping contrast over 1.4 in filmic. If one needs more there is always tone eq, or local contrast. One module doesn’t have to do it all.
I think some of the flaws you are attributing to filmic are more to do with user than tool.
While I digest some of the latest messages and test them in dt, I’d like to thank you all for the comments and discussions!
I hope I can find a default filmic setup that gives me a bit more vibrant/less distorted colors… something similar to the bit of magic ART does. (don’t tell me “shoot jpeg then”).
I have to say that I was unable to load the xmp from @pass712, @Thomas_Do and @Jade_NL – what version are you using? I’m on 3.4.1
Controlling shadows and contrast in dark areas has been one of the tricky things with filmic from day one. I’m sure it can be done and often the solution is to first raise exposure dramatically. Low key images are imho more difficult than properly exposed or high key ones. I say this a decided non expert on dt-filmic but was a dt user back in the day and test developments every now an then.
Yes of course, the two main steps are using the unbreak input profile (this will raise the middle gray) and then use the rgb level module for bringing back the middle gray to his starting position.
use the colorize module to add a solid middle gray color to the image, with the color picker we check the correct value (in this case 118 is middle gray for srgb color space)
Would a similar result be achieved by turning on filmic, setting the ‘curve’ to a straight line (contrast 1, contrast in highlights & shadows ‘soft’, mid tones saturation 0), and only adjusting white and black relative sliders for the log encoding. Then place rgb curves after that. As filmic always keeps middle grey 18%, it would mean colorise, colour pickers, and rgb levels are no longer required.
Edit: If doing this effect in filmic, preserve chrominance option might need to be changed too.
Yes, this is how filmic works but keep in mind that filmic has always some kind of desaturation/gamut mapping going on under the hood and the user can’t disable it.
Unless explicitly asked for a specific version I’m always on the latest master when doing edits for Pixls. The latest build from this morning tells me I’m on: 3.5.0-2204-g834120353 There have been a handful of merges since yesterday.
My edit uses the latest demosaic, filmic rgb (v5) and color balance rgb the first two have new option and/or are tweaked and the latter isn’t even part of 3.4.X.
I do believe that you would be able to replicate the ART version, but it will take much(?) more work even if you would have access to the latest updates/modules.
I’ve read the other replies and I do have to agree with age when it comes to filmic and how it handles, or mishandles, saturation/chrominance/gamut. This is why I often (have to) change the default preserve chrominance setting in filmic’s options tab and lower the middle tones saturation slider in the look tab.
Filmic for sure but @aadm had also added extra saturation with color balance, local contrast at 168% and I think he had cranked the filmic contrast up to 1.68 or something…the point of my post was that he was not comparing apples to apples as best you can so I went back and tried to do that with out any added edits and modules. I am in agreement with you there are a couple of filmic settings ie the midtone boost and the color preservation that can alter things colorwise for sure and as well DT expects some exposure tweaking at the outset.
It is worth noting that even with ART you can have a pretty wide array of starting points…so comparing here…first the default profile which enables the automatch curve, then using the DCP file from adobe, then finally the DCP but disable the additional automatch curve. You could also come up with additional versions if you turn off one of the 3 parameters that you can control in the DCP. So in the end the user just has to decide what looks best to them…
Ya much as Tim says above I have a filmic preset I call neutral where I set it up as noted below in the manual and I also turn off the color preservation so that I can see how that looks at the start. Then I have a few others to cycle through that use default filmic settings and just change the preservation mode. While its nice to have the option to do so its a distraction trying to figure out what looks best
Note: filmic rgb cannot be set with entirely neutral parameters (resulting in a “no-operation”) – as soon as the module is enabled, the image is always at least slightly affected. You can, however, come close to neutral with the following settings:
in the look tab, set contrast to 1.0, latitude to 99 percent and middle tones saturation to 0 percent,
in the options tab, set contrast in shadows and in highlights to soft.
In this configuration, filmic will only perform a logarithmic tone mapping between the bounds set in the scene tab.
You will notice that if you just set color preservation to no and the midtone boost to 0 and all else default the the default profile in ART and DT result are very similar again without the WB discrepancy shown by the OP . A key missing element also is lens correction. It is turned on in DT but the lens is not recognized so there is a strong vignette. If you manually add the EF 50mm 1.8 this also improves the image. The same appears to be true for ART.
. With a bit af tweaking nonetheless its a flexible tool.
