[DE] darktable.info – A new resource for the German-speaking community (Modern Workflow & AgX)

Having another forum will absolutely fragment the community further. I’ve been around the Internet long enough to see it happen multiple times including a forum which I maintain. Facebook and Reddit are bad enough on their own causing fragmentation.

Those newbies will eventually become experienced users. Are they going to be kicked out of your forum and pushed over here? Probably not. Are they going to migrate on their own free will? Also probably not. I’m interested in helping beginners, but I’m not interested in joining yet another forum, and I’m sure others feel similarly.

There are ways this forum could work better with beginners. Having a beginner tag or something could be one way. This would allow the tag to serve the multiple purposes:

  • Signifying to readers that this is a potentially newbie question
  • Allowing people who just don’t want to deal with that stuff to completely ignore it, either explicitly by changing their user preferences to mute that tag, or implicitly by just scrolling past
  • Enabling a group of volunteers who are willing to handle beginner questions to set their preferences to be alerted to these topics and jump in the conversation
  • Adding another search mechanism for finding similar beginner topics

In the year since I joined here I’ve noticed other people newer to the forum (and some people who have been around!) engaging beginners in more friendly ways. And I say this as someone who engaged in some of the “combative” topics about some improvements. The problem mainly is lack of human resources in the community. There’s already a limited number of people in the community and some of them are the devs and maintainers themselves who quite frankly have better things to do than answer beginner questions ad-nauseam. But as the community grows, as it has in the past year, more people have been making efforts to engage beginners, including yourselves.

We’re already such a limited community. Please, please, please reconsider things that will fragment that community.

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In my opinion, there is room enough in this world for multiple darktable communities. It might even be beneficial to have a more beginner-friendly side of the community in a separate place. We all know that our deep tech focus can be alienating to newcomers.

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I have many thoughts regarding what a new user’s experience might be and the darktable manual. Nothing below is a rant, but hopefully you do get a this-dude-is-frustrated vibe from the following.

Which version of the manual? It’s one thing to tell someone to “read the manual,” and give them a link to the “correct” or “current” version (are those even the same things?) and it’s another thing for someone to do a web search, find “the” manual, then claim, “Yes, I have read the manual,” and come to find out, they read version 3.8 of the manual.

Darktable itself lists 7 versions on their official website: resources | darktable

Any of those versions can be stumbled across in doing a regular web search. A savvy reader will notice at the top that the manual version is 3.8, realize they downloaded darktable version 5.4, and figure, “ah, this is the wrong manual, I need version 5.4,” and then spend countless time trying to figure out where the hell manual 5.4 is. And then (hopefully) eventually stumble across resources | darktable and see that version 5.2 is the newest. So they click on that, and…it doesn’t give the version at the top…“Well, hopefully this is the right version.”

One would assume that something as simple as dt’s screen layout, which basically hasn’t changed in, well, forever, would be explained in an easy-to-find place. Like here: darktable user manual - screen layout

The top panel and filmstrip/timeline parts of the screen have links so the user can find out more about that part of the UI. But if they want to know what the bottom panel is all about, they have to find that information by going to the menu, expanding either “lighttable” or “darkroom” then clicking on view layout. It would take 2 minutes to add those two links to the section “bottom panel” on the original “screen layout” page.

If a new user finds documentation about a module, many times they are confused because of the technical writing and jargon. I understand the need for precision when explaining something, but when it takes a new user multiple times of reading, doing additional research to determine what some of the jargon might mean, and then still coming here to the forum to ask WTF does ___ mean? you know there’s room for improvement in the writing.

I taught writing to 13-15 year-olds for 30+ years. Granted, that’s not necessarily the demographic darktable is probably used by, but a manual meant for new users should definitely be targeted for that reading level (and, in case you think that is “dumbing down,” a typical 15 year old can read at a fairly high level).

One of the pros/cons (depending on your technical knowledge or darktable user skills) that often gets mentioned concerning darktable is how great it is that nothing is “hidden” from the user—other software you simply move a slider and magically your image’s sharpness increases and another slider and the contrast decreases.

For users coming from such software, they need, at the very least, as @hannoschwalm suggests, “…a “FAQ/First steps” part at the very top of the manual.”

That’s a great first step, however, I believe it’s been suggested before, but many of the module pages could be divided into few sections and yes, I understand this is a massive undertaking):

  • basic information using basic language for what the module is/does
  • when/why and possible when/why not to use the module
  • a picture of the parts of the module and each parts function using basic language
  • a deep dive/technical section for the math/physics types who need to know what exactly is going on under the hood
  • information covering aspects of the former use of the module if it has changed over time - then all of the old manuals could just be deleted so web searches don’t stumble across the old manuals

Before someone says, “Well, what’s stopping you from doing that on the official documentation?” let me tell you about that. It’s not that easy. Sure, some people like to tell others that it’s easy to make changes to the manual, just getting started is overwhelming to some of us—at least three different times I have read through all of the documentation, looked at pages, etc. etc. Only to be daunted by the scope and intimidated by the process.

Could the manual be a wiki instead, and anyone can make edits, which of course have to be approved?

For me, it would simply be easier to write my own information than attempt to rework the existing handbook.

@raublekick has created a great resource with the darktable 5.4 - A Introductory Beginner Workflow and Interactive Walkthrough and @Qor is attempting to do the same with darktable.info – Mastering Darktable 5.4: Workflow, AgX & Shortcuts

There is definitely a need for something for new users when it comes to the manual.

[edited to expand on idea] For those who are concerned about a “competing” forum, is that along the same lines as being concerned about competing forks of darktable? In fact, many times when a user makes a suggestion about the software, the response is: fork it and make those changes. Yet somehow it’s a concern to make your own manual?

Can PIXLS.US be bettered for the new user’s experience? Sure. @raublekick included some great ideas.

I’ve noticed that many of us who engage in Play Raw do so because we enjoy it. But sometimes, when a user has a specific question about how to do something, some of us ignore what they are asking about and just give an edit. For example, I have the bad habit of providing a black and white edit even if they have a question about color…shame on me. So maybe we can be more focused with that?

When asking on the forum about whether some users are experiencing a certain issue, there can be radio silence—I believe I’ve had a couple of my posts completely ignored, not even a “Nope, mine isn’t doing that.”

Maybe a new post somewhere brainstorming some ideas?

With the increasing prices of other image editing software I think there is going to be a continual increase in new users. Let’s make the atmosphere welcoming.

Just my 2p.

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We do have this, but it’s not right at the top of the manual. It’s a whole 11 pages in. It could probably be a bit nearer the top

Maybe, but even among the devs / expert users, there are many opinions, so that’s hard, and mainly why we keep opinions away from the manual as much as possible.

The fragmentation of the community was already a fact way before that forum started. As a new-comer in darktable a year back it did not felt welcome.

Let me share my experience. These are not literal quotes but more the gist of what I experienced:

Me: I am new to darktable and love it! How can I do this and this

Read the manual

Me: I tried but is rather super technical, could you add some of the great resources on YouTube to manual

No, we don’t want to endorse anybody.

Me: so where do I find good resources? Not everything is great on YouTube

Use the search function on YouTube

Me I will stop asking, YouTube does not care about the quality of the resources and the search function is very bad

Me: AgX is great!! But the labels are not very user friendly

(Long discussion later) That doesn’t matter it should be scientific accurate.

Don’t get me wrong I am very happy, very grateful and very excited about darktable. But as a new beginner it is hard to learn. It has a steeper learning curve than the other raw editors.

Partly it has to do with the UI. As an example, not to criticise or to start that discussion, the toe / shoulder label are not intuitive if you are not familiar with the math. But every photographer knows what shadows are. So there is an added learning investment needed for a good portion of the user. The fact that even Bruce from time to time in his videos say: I have no idea what that does shows that it not very easy to learn darktable.

And the other part is the manual, it is simple not as accessible for new comers. And it is sometimes about of date.

These are all choices made in the past. Everything above is an observation. I am not blaming anyone! And I get it… If I was a dev for darktable, I would probably do the same. And I do have great respect for the devs!

But, then but don’t be surprised that some of the new commers after a while start a thing on their own.

It just shows that there has been not much care for them to begin with. If there would have a good central place for beginner resources, this whole darktable.info thing would not have come into existence.

And I get that people are not happy and see the community falling apart. But it can be something good that there is a place for noobs. It can help people grow in darktable.

Because you know… there is a new kid on the block. If I would have to search now for a new raw editor, and if my raw files would behave nice with it. I probably would have tried Rapid Raw…

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Whole heartily %100 agree.

There are also users that English is their 2nd language.
I myself lived for almost 50 years in US and worked as C. Engineer and still struggle with English language ( You may have notice that from some of writings but also many complain that about all of us, engineers ). My point is photography can be highly technical, and with advent of the mobil phone everyone has a camera in their hand and many are not only aware of the technical aspects of it but also want to understand the technical writing about it.

Having said all that, combining forces can serve every group.
I really like the ideas that @raublekick that he is proposing. it will provide one central location for the help and information. Otherwise it may become like the multible versions of the manual that we all are not fond of.

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First: I love Darktable. Best Software for me.
But: as it has enormous capabilities and most often more than one way to archieve a goal i find it sometimes difficult to find an answer for a „How to question“.
Dokumentation is not always easy to understand. Examples are rare. Translation into german often is really not good. And I feel like @EmerS: the way to contribute scares me off.
So, how to proceed?
examples of how to seems a good starting point but should be easier to write. I love the „how to … in Darktable 5.2“ Blog Artikel.
Keep the quality gates of the documentation (high). But maybe rewrite the guide to contribute.

To the question of splitting the community: Darktable.info is nice but even I am german native speaker I prefer pixls.us

One last comment: I miss something in between forum („discussion “) and documentation. But I am not shure if this has to be here.

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Couple of random thoughts

Reviving and supporting the use of the blog posts …Over the years many users of the group have posted some detailed responses that would have been 90 percent ready or easily converted to blog posts. I know when I first started to use DT I really enjoyed them. A timeline of information on topics and features would be helpful for new users and provide context in short free form documents with photos and examples rather than have them try to find and decipher resources all over the internet.

Kudo’s to Andrew @raublekick for his contribution in what could be a string of updated posts…

I think having an organized centralized resource for DT is beneficial if the goal is to guide newcomers in line with the software design and philosophy. Having resources in a go to location on or linked from the main website for the software would make them available at the site where they come to download and get information about the software.

I think over and over I recall hearing from new users that they were overwhelmed and discouraged by trying to sift through the resources scattered all over and often out of date.

In response as of late there have been several lists, guides and video’s pop-up.

So there is more content but what is the best way to be sure that new users come across that and can make use of it, ie digest it. There have been a couple of great efforts to create a list of resources and content but in the end its just that a big list of places to go off searching, still useful but maybe not an effective directed starting point.

I think it was mentioned above that perhaps there might need to be at times a measure of focus and opinionated review of what content best serves new users moving to DT. I know that begs the question who decides what that is but the alternative to just throw everything in the mix is while polite, and open. maybe not be the guided directing introduction that new users might need. I’m talking about something posted on the DT site as part of the official documentation and not suggesting anyone get excluded from recommended lists or other summaries.

Over time there is often the impression that “well this is techinical software developed by technical people for technically minded people to edit photo’s… so you will have to get up to speed and figure it out… you will learn to love it…” Intentional or otherwise I think this is the experience for many new users. To a degree maybe this is true…

In the end the software can’t be all things to all people and it is very technical. The manual is quite technical as well and has been hard to keep up to date so at least for now some current and selected blog posts would likely be very helpful for new users… (again thanks Andrew). Software like ART recently benefited from a really nice resource “The ART book” with a nice collection of details and examples …

https://artraweditor.github.io/Book

I am not sure there is any one solution, I guess for now upon reflection in this moment we could ask is there a better way to cast a wider net and or remove any barriers to using DT so that it is more approachable and if so what does that look like. Is that a real priority for the project or is the limited time people have better spent on the code and the end result…

In a perfect world we could have the best information, documentation, and video libraries available for DT that would take hours to compile and produce and still it has to come down to the desire and tenacity of the user to invest some time and be open to new learning. Some people are tenacious and will stick with something that presents as an obstacle or challenge and others will quickly give up because they have vastly different expectations. personalities and needs. Between these extremes there are a range of users that would benefit from some guidance and standardized set of information…

I think everyone creating content (written, video, code) for DT is to be applauded. We all benefit from the fruits of your labour and you giving of your free time to create and maintain this project. For those that can and do create content, perhaps consider offering up your content as blog post to the DT site and then you can link that back to your own sites or platforms… Right now we are doing it the other way around and so it leaves those managing the DT project to try and cobble together information from various sources and in the end the new user has a map with 10 forks in the road from the outset rather than getting a few miles on the trail before they have to make the decision about which path is right for them…

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Perhaps we should all consider how we can work more closely together in general and also in relation to darktable.info?

After all, this is about Darktable, the best RAW development software imaginable. The more people switch to DT, the greater the chance of mobilising new developers and additional helpers and defusing what is (presumably) a tense situation?

As an idea, we could link directly to pixls.us instead of forum.darktable.info. In return, it would make sense to send beginners to darktable.info, at least until the DT manual has provided the necessary content for beginners and darktable.info becomes obsolete.

Just an idea. Do you have any other ideas or suggestions on how we can all work together more effectively?

Best regards, Chris

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Hi, wie kann man die neuen Key shortcuts rotate left/right (laut Doku über Alt-[ und Alt-] erreichbar) auf einem deutschen Keyboard eingeben?

Bei meiner Tastatur liegen die eckigen Klammern auf AltGr 8 / 9.

Ich müsste also Alt - AltGr - 8 eingeben, was aber nicht zu funktionieren scheint.

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Da haben wir einen Fehler auf der Seite. Es ist einfach nur:

  • AltGr + 8
  • AltGr + 9

Danke für den Hinweis. lg Chris

I think we have spelled out a clear path for this, and in case we haven’t: we need to keep the manual up to date for what is already there. The manual is meant to be evergreen, so first we must keep what’s there before we consider adding anything else.

We are always happy to publish tutorials, workflows, and whatever other kind of articles on the darktable.org blog, where content is not considered evergreen. If content on the blog is kept up to date for a reasonable amount of time, I’d consider moving it to a more evergreen location.

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Sorry for not addressing the first parts of your post, I needed some time to think on it a bit.

What is the proposal? I personally haven’t had time to read a lot of the docs on it, and thus I personally would not link to it from the pixls forum. If other people find it good and want to link to it, then they can (and presumably already are). Nobody is stopping you from linking to it from here.

I don’t think this has held true for darktable at all. It seems like we continually see bumps in new users, especially when Adobe does something janky like raising prices. This has been happening for a few years, but at least to me, hasn’t actualized into any new developers. It might have actualized a few new people contributing to the docs, and has likely had more people participating here and elsewhere.

I don’t understand, what is tense?

You should do whatever you feel is best for the community you are developing.

I already hear that darktable is confusing, so I don’t think trying to direct people to completely different sites to get help makes it less confusing. What happens when people are no longer new but seasoned users? Do you kick them off your forums and tell them to come here? The shuffle makes no sense to me.

I don’t know that the docs will ever be that opinionated, but again, the manual isn’t the only resource there is.

I’ve been the maintainer of darktable.org for several years, and I’ve never turned down a blog post in that time. There are other places on the website as well.

I am still a little confused that you suddenly want to work together? You explicitly struck out to do your own thing, and you did it, it seems to be a good resource.

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Perhaps it doesn’t seem that way, but there was never a time when we didn’t want to work together. I (or rather, we) have also given it some more thought and considered what is/would be best for DT.

Hence the idea of “playing with the thought” of whether there is a better option in the current situation. In other words, if desired, we are open to suggestions. I cannot estimate to what extent this is wanted or desired.

I just visited the dt-info site to see what’s going on and after 5 min stumbled across raw CA “Pro” hints. I tried to comment - not accepting saving my data but giving true name and email - that pretty lengthy stuff was just “not taken”. I really don’t care about that, but "truely bad ProTip"s are nothing what we want here on pixls.us. On this forum at least we have active devs and long-time users sometimes stepping in on such advice. And it’s not about being opiniated - it’s just about technical correctness.

The limit for the email address is 100 characters and 255 for the name.
ChrisChrisChrisChrisChrisChrisChrisChrisChrisChrisChrisChrisChrisChrisChrisChrisChris123@net-fx.de - that’s 99 characters, so you seem to have a really long email address.

I guess you’re referring to this paragraph?

Pro Tip: Automatically apply to all images

Since this module technically improves image quality without changing the artistic look, it makes sense to have it always activated. You can configure darktable so that this module is automatically turned on for every new image import. This saves you thousands of clicks!

How to create this “Auto-Preset”:

  1. Activate the module raw chromatic aberrations on any image.
  2. Click on the hamburger menu (≡) in the header of the module.
  3. Select Store new preset….
  4. Give the preset a name, e.g., “Auto CA”.
  5. Important: Check the box at the bottom of the window for auto apply this preset to matching images.
  6. If you only own Bayer sensor cameras, leave the filter fields (model, maker, lens, ISO etc.) at default values (%). This means: “Apply it to EVERY imported image” (or apply at history discard or full history stack reset).
  • if any of the images you will import/reset are not made with a Bayer sensor, you should set the “model” field to the model name of your camera
  1. Click OK.

Yes - exactly.

And the note at the beginning is probably not enough?

NOTE 2: Do not use the TCA correction options in the “Lens Correction” module if you are using the “Raw CA” module.

I have removed the problematic paragraph as long as it is unclear. Thank you for pointing this out.

For me, there was never really any discussion about contributions or what is best for the project. I’m confused about how I’d be left with the impression that you wanted to collaborate.

I don’t know how we’d collaborate with out just subsuming the information from .info, and that’d likely be a pretty lengthy process to review it. It’d also take time away from the manual itself and other resources.

I also don’t know how to reconcile two forums, especially when your language around being a “safe space” seems to be direct commentary on this forum and you’ve outright duplicated things we already have here in a 1:1 fashion.

I don’t think its good advice to apply this module to every image, unless you’re shooting with lenses that are (1) not covered by lensfun and (2) exhibit CA.

So the advice to turn it on for all images is not optimal.

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