Yes, definitely not. We have removed the paragraph and will reword it.
The reference is there, but the context is not clear.
NOTE 2: Do not use the TCA correction options in the “Lens Correction” module if you are using the “Raw CA” module.
I just saw your comment on the page. It just wasn’t approved “right away”. Thanks again for pointing that out.
It’s not a problem of wording and the context. I would even say - as mentioned on your forum it’s not about being opiniated - the suggestion to have it always-on is plain-wrong. It’s for lenses needing it, nothing more.
With respect - a forum for “new dt users” as you have started, that’s up to you and i am free to contribute or ignore.
Bad suggestions - and it’s phrased a “ProTip” - based on personal ideas is a bit annoying to me. For me “Pro” means: founded on something for sure. (BTW you will find contributions here about that topic if you search.) Will new users find out themselves why the suggestion is not a good one at all? I just hope that those users never think “Pro” is related to information from the responsible developer (in that raw CA case it would probably me) or from investigating and understanding the source.
All in all, wishing you the best and don’t feel personally offended by these comments 
Thanks again for the clarification
Thank you for that too. There’s no reason to take anything personally here. There’s a mistake here and you’re taking the time to point it out to us. It’s okay to make mistakes, even if we try to avoid them. It would be foolish not to learn from them or not to consider criticism and suggestions.
Best regards, Chris
My personal opinion is that I would prefer all DT documentation to be in just one place, and all DT related discussion also centralized in one place. If anything, there are already too many places where conversations take place (forums, chatrooms, reddit, PRs, feature requests and bug reports on Github…) which make it difficult to profit from the accumulated knowledge.
I do not see the value of a forum specifically for novice users hosted on DT.info. From my POV it just increases fragmentation. Whoever posts there would have a broader audience (and possibly more authoritative answers) already here on pixls. Maybe beginner users could be instructed to add a “beginner” or “novice” tag to their posts, and folks like @Qor and his collaborators could take in on themselves to pay specific attention to this audience. The mods could add a sticky post in the DT category to invite novices to use this tag.
I also think that the the tutorials published in DT.info would better be published as blogposts or tutorials or whatnot in the official DT channels. They would be more visible, reach a broader audience and be a better service to the community.
I understand that Chris wants to consolidate his contributions (tutorials, themes, shortcuts and what not) in just one place, it makes sense. But whenever possible DT.info should point to the official DT channels, and not the other way around.
The tutorials have stirred some controversy concerning their tone, style and (in some cases, as discussed above) correctness of the provided information. The authoritativeness of the published information would benefit from having them added to the official DT docs and go through a reviewing process that would ensure their stylistic appropriateness and technical correctness.
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[qquote=“Masterpiga, post:126, topic:54423”]
I do not see the value of a forum specifically for novice users hosted on DT.info. From my POV it just increases fragmentation
[/quote]
If this place was friendly for noobs, I would agree. But - to put it bluntly - this place feels condensing towards noobs. I have tried to explain that in a more friendly manner above.
Everybody is free to think and say about that .info site and forum what they want.
But the fact that they started and are building that, shows that the official darktable documentation is simply inadequate. The documentation often doesn’t explain how to use darktable, it explain how darktable works. And those questions look similar, but are very different. I also think this group of new comers that is fed up with this forum but want to help noobs.
You can be angry about it, criticising them, attack them. And I can understand that, but that is just more proof for noobs that this place is filled with unfriendly, condescending people.
So, I would urge you all: do some reflection. Think about how you would like this community to be if you were new to this forum.
If the outcome is that you don’t like noobs using forum or even darktable, fine. But then just ignore that .info site and let them be. Because then you don’t want them to part of your community.
But if you do want to have noobs in your community, if you want a single community and a the .org website to the place then an attitude adjustment might be required. Embrace that group, improve ‘how to’ documentation and stop judging.
The choice is up to this community.
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this community is quite helpful but also annoyed by getting repetitions of questions answered several times …
Just wait if darktable.info will be more patient if the same questions comes over and over even those can easily be answered by reading the content of that website or forum messages 
That is a thing yes. On the other side; it is not easy to find the right answer on this forum. And also not more than once a thread on this forum goes completely off topic…
I would say, repeated questions ask for a good blog or faq article on the .org website.
I would suggest: if you have a list of such repeated questions on top of your mind. We’ll spill them out here and see if the .info people are willing / happy to write something for the .org site…
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That sums it up quite well.
That’s a personal decision. Here’s my view on it. Someone asks a question and I answer it as best I can or want to. I don’t worry about what information they already have, what they’ve read or haven’t read. That’s not my “job” and it always remains a guess or an assumption. It also misses the point.
The point is the question, and I can answer it or not.
For some, this perspective may be difficult to accept because they are not used to being treated with kindness and respect themselves.
Are we reading the same forum? What attacks are you talking about? And who is angry? There may have been disagreements and corrections, but I haven’t seen attacks.
I found most people very kind and most interactions very productive in this forum. True, there is the occasional dismissive response, I got some of them too, but it’s kind of normal, isn’t it.
We agree that the docs can be improved. However, doing it well requires time and effort. I am happy that Chris and Co. got the cycles to write some up-to-date tutorials. However, I think that for the good of the ecosystem, that energy would be better spent adding content organically in a centralized place. That said, it’s their tutorials so of course they can host them wherever they want.
Again, I do not understand where the bitterness is coming from.
+1, this is a nice proposal.
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Aiding beginners: Education or Formatting?
I would like to clarify from the start that my remarks are not intended as a personal attack, but as a constructive contribution to a debate that I believe is essential for the future of our community. My goal is to share a perspective based on years of observation, in the hope of preserving what makes darktable unique.
There is a fundamental question that everyone here seems to be carefully avoiding: What exactly is a beginner?
The term ‘beginner’ is being used as a marketing shield to justify a new kind of dogmatism. In reality, there are two distinct profiles:
- The Photography Beginner (The Student): This is someone who hasn’t yet mastered exposure or color. By imposing a ‘Golden Path’ (AgX, Sigmoid, etc.) on them, we are teaching them to manipulate algorithms before they even learn to look at light. We are giving them a pre-packaged recipe. A true beginner needs to understand how light interacts with a sensor. Forbidding ‘legacy’ modules (like Color Zones) means taking away intuitive, visual tools and replacing them with abstract mathematical sliders.
- The darktable Beginner (The Transfuge): Often an experienced photographer coming from Lightroom or Capture One. This is the real target of
darktable.info. The site wants to prove that darktable is ‘just as efficient’ as Lightroom. To avoid discouraging them, the software’s complexity is hidden, treating these seasoned photographers like children. Instead of explaining the unique richness of darktable, they are being sold a free Lightroom clone.
Then, there is the issue of documentation. Today, the official manual is presented as a complex scarecrow to justify creating pedagogical shortcuts. But documentation is the only true guarantee of user freedom. By discouraging people from reading it in favor of a simplified ‘Golden Path,’ we are making them dependent on a single interpretation of the software. A true community effort should focus on making the manual more accessible, not replacing it with ‘cooking recipes’ that rob users of their ability to understand the tool deeply.
In conclusion: Helping a beginner requires pedagogy (explaining the ‘why’). Helping a ‘transfuge’ requires facilitation (showing the equivalents).
darktable.info blurs these two: it uses the vulnerability of the former to justify a directive interface, but targets the latter to gain influence. This is the ‘Marketing of the Recipe.’ It trains ‘software operators,’ not photographers. The day they step off the ‘Golden Path,’ they will be completely lost because they never learned the foundations of the software.
I observed a similar approach with Aurélien Pierre: a brilliant vision, but a ‘one-way street’ that tolerated no deviation. By labeling many modules as ‘technically wrong,’ he caused the departure of major French-speaking contributors like Carafife. The result was the decline of darktable.fr and a fragmented community. I fear that this new project, with its quasi-official domain name and private forum, will end up completing this work of division.
P.S.: You can be a great chef with old cast iron pans. You can be a great photographer with ‘legacy’ modules.
Thanks to AI for the translation. I hope it is faithful to my original text.
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Thank you for this profound and well-structured contribution. You raise the crucial question about the nature of a “beginner” and the responsibility of teaching. This is not a “personal attack,” but the core of what we need to discuss.
However, I would like to disagree with you on one central point: Your thesis of disempowerment (“Formatting”).
You distinguish between the “Student” (learning light) and the “Transfuge” (knows Lightroom). Your concern is that we are leading both groups into dependency through a “Golden Path,” training “software operators” instead of photographers.
Here is my counter-perspective:
1. The Reality of Cognitive Overload
A “Transfuge” often doesn’t come to darktable seeking “unique richness,” but because they want to leave a subscription model. They are looking for a tool that works. If we tell them: “Here is the manual, go read about the physical principles of the pixelpipe before you touch a slider,” we are not treating them like adults, but like PhD candidates.
Adult learners want success (Quick Wins). darktable.info provides these. This is not a “marketing shield,” but a didactic necessity. Only when the result is satisfactory does the curiosity for the “why” emerge.
2. Agency vs. Patronizing
You write that we are “treating seasoned photographers like children.” I see it the exact opposite way: We trust them to recognize a recommendation as such.
When we say: “Use AgX instead of the Base Curve,” that is not a law, but expert advice. An empowered user is not a “mindless zombie.” They can accept this advice, achieve quick results, and later—if they wish—dust off the “old cast iron pans” (legacy modules). But we don’t let them walk into the forest without a map just so they can feel “freedom.”
3. The Manual as Reference, Not Textbook
You call the manual the “only true guarantee of freedom.” Technically true, but pedagogically, it is often a hurdle. An encyclopedia guarantees knowledge, but no one learns a language by reading the dictionary from A to Z. You need a phrasebook (“Ordering in a restaurant”). darktable.info is this phrasebook. It doesn’t replace the encyclopedia (we link to it!), it makes it usable in the first place.
4. On Community Fragmentation
The comparison with Aurélien Pierre is interesting but limps in one respect: Aurélien often argued from a technical-absolutist standpoint (“This is mathematically wrong”). We argue from a pragmatic-result-oriented standpoint (“This is simpler and looks better”).
A community does not fracture because of offers that make entry easier. It grows because of them. I see the danger of division more where beginners are subtly told they aren’t “real” darktable users unless they walk the hard, stony path of pure doctrine.
Conclusion:
You are right: You can be a great chef with old cast iron pans. But if someone asks: “Which pan should I buy?”, I recommend the modern non-stick pan, not the heavy cast iron one that needs seasoning first. That is not disempowerment; that is good advice. Those who want to become master chefs will get the cast iron on their own later.
Chris
We do have rules: FAQ - discuss.pixls.us, so if you feel these are being violated, and you obviously do, then please flag them so we can take corrective action. This is what the flag is for and every single flag is reviewed.
There are parts of the manual dedicated to use(such as darktable user manual - an introduction to darktable's workflow) but you are right, it is mostly reference. I do think that people who are new should read the first three sections of the manual: Overview, Lighttable, Darkroom, as that covers a lot of the questions we get from new people. As far as other types of information go, that’s why we have a blog, and we just recently published a nice AgX tutorial there, which was contributed by a user here.
I’m not against having a tutorial section on the website, but the content isn’t there.
I actually really like what Siril has done recently-ish with their tutorial section, where they just mark tutorials as old, but still leave them up.
Yes, as explain already, you’re free to do what you want, and others in the past have done similar things. I mean, most of the videos on YouTube are basically this in video format… and it’s all good.
The confusion comes from the sudden want to collaborate, which had not been expressed until now.
I don’t see where this has happened at all.
It is easy to say this, but harder to do it. I’ve spent hundreds and hundreds of hours on darktable related things to try and make them better. I spent just over 100 hours alone converting the documentation from DocBook XML to markdown because the community said they would contribute more if it weren’t for that stogy old XML format. Plus more time to implement the new documentation site, the github actions, etc etc. And that’s just my time on that one thing that is pretty much invisible to anyone who doesn’t contribute to the docs. This doesn’t even account for Chris’ time, and he’s put in a ton too.
I am one person, I have limited time. My actual job that pays my bills and puts food on the table for my family takes 50 hours a week of my time. I like sleeping too. Occasionally, I even go out and make some actual photographs too. So “just improve the documentation” is a demand of more time from those who have already given (a lot of) time. I don’t find this statement to be fair at all.
The documentation is an open project, we’ve done our best to document how to edit the documentation. I realize it is still fairly technical if you’re not computer savvy, but we are doing the best we can with the resources we have.
We do! And we’ve formatted that into a manual. And a fairly extensive FAQ at faq | darktable where the first section is “New Users.” This is mostly the work of @Donatzsky so a huge thank you to them for their continued work on this section of the website.
This is why we ask people to read them, because ingesting that information would answer a whole host of questions that we get really frequently. Going back to the limited time part that I explained above, I try and use my time efficiently, so explaining something that we’ve already explained in the manual and in several posts here on the forum seems like not a great use of limited time. I understand if you feel differently.
And again: you suggest that other people take the time to do these things.
You’ve always been able to do this, the website is also an open project.
Which part of the first three section of the manual discuss physics(Overview: darktable user manual - Overview, Lighttable: darktable user manual - Lighttable, and darkroom: darktable user manual - Darkroom? Please link to them.
How can you not be a “software operator” on some level if you choose digital at any point in your workflow? You’re always either taking on the technical things yourself or offloading them to another system/person. This has always been true of photography.
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As you have provided a lengthy counter-argument, continuing a point-by-point debate would likely be counter-productive.
However, I would like to clarify my point regarding education. When I look for guidance on complex topics like AgX or the base curve, I value the kind of deep, constructive information found here this post Blender AgX in darktable (proof of concept) - #68 by kofa and Blender AgX in darktable (proof of concept) - #97 by Popanz. These are based on real-world experience and technical rigor.
Unfortunately, what I read on darktable.info lacks that personal touch; there is an absence of concrete examples, and the phrasing feels like AI-generated content designed for engagement rather than deep learning.
To be perfectly honest, my ethics prevent me from approving of a page like this one.
To me, this approach feels too ‘merchandised’—the style of an influencer rather than a community contributor. I find it somewhat disrespectful to the developers who have built the actual complexity and power of the software.
I prefer to end my participation in this debate here, as I have no wish to offend anyone during this holiday season.
Greetings from de Luberon,
Christian
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Just for me to understand you… Do you expect people to read 2248 messages to understand (as I am writing this) a complex topic like AgX?
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Did you click the links? They’re to specific posts in the thread. He’s asking you to read two posts. Earlier complaints were about not being able to find things in the forum and not being linked directly to things, and here we are…
I’m new to dt (about 6 months now). I’m more in the beginner category with respect to digital RAW development.
I love this site, and I have always felt welcome here. Expert users have been helpful and respectful. And the tone is typically very friendly. Yes, there was a previous developer who was “challenging,” as they say, but that person is no longer here.
When I first started, I just needed a good workflow and general introduction, which I found in some YT tutorials (I think my gateway was from DarkTable Landscapes). After awhile, the documentation started making more sense. And over time, some of the forum posts proved to be helpful or just interesting.
There are sometimes very technical threads in this forum, but not everyone has to read those to get started. All forums that I have seen have similar issues.
Regarding fragmentation, well, it’s a “free world” and people can do what they want. But as a new user myself, I see real value in having a single community in which experts are available and who are willing to help. I do not wish to join a second darktable forum.
There are other channels, too. I see posts on Reddit from total NEWBS who get good support from some of the people from this forum. And, if they are sufficiently motivated, they will eventually find themselves over here.
I would agree with having a “beginners” section of this forum, and I think the new workflow tutorial from @raublekick could get pinned there. I think it’s very good. Other contributors with tutorials (Avid Andrew, maybe even the new German tutorial) could add links there.
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Yes I clicked links. But I fail to see how these post will help users that don’t have mathematical background to understand what AgX is about? Nor do I understand how this is actually helpful in using AgX.
I have a background in computer science and mathematics. So I have no issues with reading this. But I will very much contest that these posts have educational value unless somehow wants to be educated in the mathematics behind raw processing. I simply don’t see how understanding a traditional tone curve will map only to 0…1 and AgX is not, will make you a better photographer.
This doesn’t take away that @Christian-B is enjoying this kind of information. And it is really awesome that software like darktable is developed in the open for people to enjoy this.
Yes, there is very technical aspect to photography. But it is much more, it is about color, composition and light. And there is no need to go into mathematics to learn and understand about color science, the art of composition and the properties of light.
The great painters like Van Gogh, Rembrand, Vermeer, Rubens etc… had no understand of the mathematics we are all discussing here and nonetheless they had phenomenal understanding of color, composition and light. Much more than many of us, including myself, will likely ever obtain.
I don’t want to this disqualify, disrespect or attack the developers in any way. But in the end, darktable is ‘just’ a tool, just a much a my camera is ‘just’ a tool. And yes, darktable is incredible awesome tool, that I love. And one that I very thankful for. But I love using it, because I love to take pictures. I love using it because it helps me to realise an artistic vision.
But I am not a user that cares much about the mathematics behind my raw editor. (I have to care enough about the mathematics in my daily work).
Could you explain why you find that disrespectful?
When I read this, I actually see a compliment for the developers. If you get into photography and start reading about raw editors, then adobe’s lightroom is always the standard. Ins the majority of the reviews of the raw editors, everything else is compared against it. And it seems to be (or at least was) the industry standard. So when the writers of .info say that is a professional alternative, and that darktable delivers like Lightroom does. The developers have devolved a piece of software in their spare time that is can compete with the industry leader… That this sounds for me as a compliment.
So I am wondering… what part of that writing is disrespectful towards the developers? What am I missing?
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Thank you for posting this, which I would like to second. I’ve never seen a forum acting so welcoming, helpful, respectful, solution-oriented, open-minded, loaded with expertise and willing to share this - all at the same time. Allowing each and every perspective, always discussing respectfully. Even being self-reflecting during really “hot / passionate” discussions, also willing to give in when seeing own “overshoots” here or there.
For me this is indeed a very social environment. And I wished that much more places would exist like this place here.
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The seconds link in particular seems like the exact kind of plain language thing you’d be looking for. But that’s just my understanding with my degree in creative writing poetry, English, and technical certificate in film photography.
Yours is clearly different. If you’ve decided that we can’t help you here, then we certainly can’t help you here.