range rating (almost always with right click dropdown to select all / all except rejected)
color labels (almost always only red/yellow/green for development status)
tags (from collections module or tagging module, missing in collection filters !)
geotagging (from collections module, missing in collection filters !)
other purposes :
filmroll / date/time (from collections module)
lens (from collections module, missing in collection filters !)
Conclusion :
I mainly use the “old” filter fuctionality from collections module because many of the cirteria I use to filter images are not (yet ?) available from the new collection filters. The date range filtering (also the timeline) is almost useless for me, having thousands of images distributed over several tens of years (digital photos and digitized analog photos).
And there should be only one place where the filtering of the images is defined, and this place should contain, like the “old” collections module, a complete set of selectable criteria. At the moment I strongly prefer the “old” collections module.
I have pinned the legacy rating widget, color labels and sort order to the top bar and I never even open the module on the left-hand panel (I use the collections module for any other filtering). In my opinion, while the new widgets seem great for quick selection (as long as you don’t want to select non-continuous ranges) they do a very poor job of providing an at-a-glance display of what’s currently selected. Reading the widgets either requires too much thought (range rating), hovering of the mouse (all the other range widgets), or keeping the left-hand module expanded.
I never really analyzed why it’s hard for me, so now you’re forcing me to think .
I’m 66 years old and I’ve been wearing glasses for the last 58 years. I’m very near sighted, so my glasses are thick and I have graduated bi-focals so that I can read with them on.
When I’m in my home office I work off of a 32" 4K monitor, which is hooked to my laptop. As I mentioned in this thread or the related one, right now my house is a construction zone and part of that is my office. So right now I’m working off of my laptop screen which is 17" HD at arms length.
Looking at the filter widget:
I can see the word filter
I see a round icon with something in the middle (maybe an x?)
I see an empty star with something in the middle (I thought it was an X but after staring at it for awhile I think it’s a line through it.
I see 5 filled in stars.
I can read this easily. I know exactly what I’m going to get when I click on a choice. I don’t have to remember what icons are in what place and where I have to click, drag, then let up to hopefully get the images I want. With the menu it’s one click for the menu and one click for the choice and it works every time.
So, I guess for me it’s a vision issue. White on light gray just doesn’t provide enough contrast for me to be able to see what I’m picking.
EDIT: Thinking a little more, there is also a degree of precision required for the widget. If I click a little too far to the left or right then my selection doesn’t start in the right place. If I drag a little too for or not far enough, then my selection doesn’t include what I want. I also have to remember what the icons mean. For me the menu is much more precise and quicker to use.
I suspect that I am much older than most dt users and I work on both a 15" laptop as well as a large 4k. screen. Whichever screen I am on I find that the menu colors/shades to be a constant challenge. Yes, I do understand that the menu should not detract from the image processing and for that reason I keep the white image border during most of the process. These ‘discrete’ colors are to my mind one of my greatest hindrances in my use of this fine software.
I do find the new filtering system (for myself) totally unnecessary. My film rolls are already descriptively useful, my tagging system is extensive and I only use the color labels for local reference. I could well do without any of the recent location and sorting aids.
dt is an incredible piece of software. Adding interface complexity is not, for me, helpful.
Thanks to your detailed comment @wpferguson. That’s the first time I understand issue posted about that filter. As all of the UI, I’ve set colors to be a good compromise between visibility and not distract image processing. Seems that due to my eyes (I’m 39 years old!)? that was good for me. I never thought about such simple thing: “older” eyes.
Seems that a way to improve a lot that widget would be to consider first visibility. Will try to find time this month to work on that. I had already some ideas to change on code and work with @AlicVB on that. Any other suggestions are of course welcomed. I especially love this widget as it allows a quicker selection than historic one, so finding a way to improving it for most users is great.
Not to derail this conversation but FWIW, I would vote for a bit more visual difference between the module “power on / off” button when in enabled vs disabled state. I don’t know if that’s a theme question, but to my 63-year-old eyes they’re pretty similar. There’s no need for anything bright nor flashy, just a little visually clearer.
Then again maybe I need to just pay more attention!
Just based on the above quote from @wpferguson, I’m not sure that this is an issue of colour/contrast but one of difficulty in distinguishing between similar/complex icons on low resolution screens. One of my original issues with the range rating filter was that I considered it too high-contrast on the grey theme, so that it drew the eye and distracted from the image.
Not related (so better avoid that here as such topics is quite complex and could become hard to follow). I will anyway see that. I will need to consider other things to see if I can make it better or not.
Thanks for reminding this, even if it makes it harder. On what I understand, both things are on @wpferguson comment. What you said AND colors. And regarding @davidj comment also, I really think it’s both colour/contrast AND distinguish similar/complex icons. Said that, it’s so completely how it is displayed. What will be hard is to find a better compromise between having better visibility of all that without coming back to your original issues.
most used - star filters and color filters (it would be nice if there are some shortcuts - hopefully pre defined) how to move stars up / down - like select 1 star or 2 stars (this part “can” be done already actually) but the second twist - expanding and contracting - for example - if the user selects 3 star - to be able with a short cut to increase 3-5 stars or go back 0-3 stars… I am not sure it exist … And it maybe entirely possible that this functionality is actually in place but I simply haven’t been able to completely figure it out…
search.
I tend to search for tags / metadata (some times same text can be in both). / File name / lens model / geo tagging / date and time / camera make and model.
Often it works very good right away.
From one side - I like the simplicity that you just type the text (Canada) for example - and it just finds it - regardless where the text is. This is very useful if I don’t remember if the text is a tag or metadata (like description).
On the flip side - there are times when I do want to specify if I am searching tags or metadata.
However - the universal search as it is now - is very useful!!
I made a similar point in the other thread (without images for illustration). I have 20/17 vision and still find it obtuse to use so I don’t think it’s just you. Thanks for the clearer illustration there.
darktable’s GUI used to be a dark gray and all the lettering was in white (or a very light gray). I don’t remember highlighting, but it was probably somewhere between the dark gray background and white.
The background has gotten progressively lighter and lighter until we’re probably only using 1/4 of the available range. Perhaps instead of continuing to render text and icons in white we should take them to black or a darker gray.
will give a much higher contrast for the main interface. Others from darktable.css can also be copied in the tweaks and adjusted to taste/need. Getting a nice homogenous interface may be a bit more difficult, but it can help in a pinch (and is easily reversible, so ideal for experimenting).
I’m really surprised by your comment @wpferguson about the GUI. dark theme is still there, with white lettering (very light gray to be precise).
The only thing that make the GUI became lighter had been introduction of grey theme, regarding optical illusions about dark themes. It’s not the background. And, when using grey theme, the bad thing is that it reduces possible contrast but improving correct processing. This was explained when released in darktable 3.0. Choice remains to use dark theme as before. I don’t understand so your comment.
There’s absolutely nothing about continuing to render text and icons in white, just about considering image processing and reducing distractions.
I’m just here, now that I understand issues about visibility on star widget, that some colours could be useful. But consider too that when we put some things that “popout” for better visibility, we could also have complaints. It’s impossible to please everyone.
About highlighting, it’s just about selection in timeline and actual widgets with selection possible (new star rating and dates ones). It’s actually impossible to not highlight one without removing it elsewhere. That’s why actually is like that. It’'s something I want to work on with @AlicVB to improving CSS possible tweaks.
@rvietor: what you post means nothing without considering related theme. If it’s darker theme, difference is indeed to 30% but consider also that when those settings had been set, it was after having quite a lot of feedback. I even proposed more contrast but it was for most feedback a no go as too bright and “distracting”. As always, it’s impossible to please everybody. Fortunately, as you said, it’s tweakable for each user. Adding your tweaks in dark or grey theme would just break them and make them no more dark or grey theme. So just a bad idea. A much higher contrast is maybe important but not the only thing to take care. And be sure that I spend a lot of time improving it since darktable 3.0. I actually have no proposal or feedback better.
And last thing, what we talk about here is mainly contrast of star range widget. So what is needed is improving background/foreground and icons inside. Given last comments and detailed one about @wpferguson. With good eyes, actual themes are ok regarding feedback and seems not on some parts for some eyes. The difficulty here is, as all people, I only have my eyes.
I was trying to get the best of both worlds. Use the light gray theme for better image processing, with darker text and icons for easier reading and recognition.
I guess this is more of a comment on the interface than specifically related to the filters, but I’m one of the older photographers (69 pushing 70) on this forum. I work with a 31" Dell 2k monitor, and am awaiting cataract surgery in the next month or two. I think that a bit more contrast would be helpful, and with the large white area around the image being edited, I don’t think it would be a problem for processing.
I think the biggest area of concern I have is with the right hand modules bar. Not enough distinction between collapsed modules (the thin white line is too thin for me). An expanded module over a collapsed module almost merges together. The > toggle is the indicator that there is another module for me.
I’ll report back after the surgery. Maybe there will be an improvment!
On which theme? Contrast can’t be better on grey theme on most items (grey is in the middle of black/white gradient so contrast is more limited). On dark and darker themes, I already proposed (as I already said in my last comment on this thread) quite some times ago better contrast and had more complaints about that it became too much highlighted than anything else. As I said, it’s impossible to please everybody but themes are all tweakable.
So there will be no improvement. Improvement you ask had already been proposed and was a no go… Just take care that I’m ok if a theme could have better contrast, if it’s possible (for grey theme) and if I don’t have more complaints against than people wanting it, for dark or darker themes (I personally only use grey theme).
On reflection, I’m not sure increasing contrast would be the solution: in both cases mentioned, the problem was not so much contrast, as difficulty seeing small details, either due to myopic vision (which I have) or cataract (blooming of lights).
So perhaps different icons would be a better solution: a simple circle for “zero stars” and a cross (×) for “rejected”? Even if the cross could get confused with the stars, the separation would help. (or no change, and rely on the positions of the symbols, a bit like traffic lights aren’t a problem for the colour-blind).
Very little separation between modules on the lightable. The whole set of modules sort of merges together.
And to bring up perhaps a sore subject, one of the most important modules I use is the export module. I have presets I use for various custom exports, which is great, however I often need to change my target folder. The whole input area is too small. A popup with more real estate to edit the string would be helpful. Changing the target destination also resets the $variable back to filename, which is a pain to reset each time. Just hoping for some improvement here.
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