open source software has far more developers by several orders of magnitude than adobe or ms
The handful of Gimp developers enter the chat …
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Wanting a decent FOSS raw-processor. Though I had tinkered with Linux since 2002 or so, and have run MythTV on Linux since 2010, it was when I got back into photography and wanted to run darktable that I finally ditched Microsoft from all my own computers. (Like many lament, I still need to use a work laptop with Windows)
Let me just illustrate what a fringe we are xD
Somehow most of my friends that I interact irl are at least aware of Linux or use it actively. We’ve all met in completely non Linux related circumstances but most of them are devs or admins or cooks but they do know at least some sys admin stuff. Naturally I assumed every IT person or techie was like us. At least aware of Linux and it’s surrounding ecosystem. Boy was I wrong.
I was just at a pretty big dev conference in our nations capital. Some people were praising Macs into the stratosphere. I said I could never get the level of power and comfort on any other platform than Linux and that Apple is the new old Microsoft. Nobody understood what I meant to say. I said I’d buy an iPhone if they implement USB type-c and normal installation of third party apps outside the app store and with no restrictions on devs and users from Apple. They all got mad at me how that would all be bad, it would ruin their experience or whatever. I tried talking about user freedoms and software freedoms. Nobody was even remotely familiar with that ethics and legal topic. Nobody even understood what I meant, I was telling them about FOSS software, they were replying to me about proprietary software that’s free of charge. Mind you, in my language free and free of charge are two distinctly different words, we don’t get those confused, ever.
I mentioned matrix, nobody knew what it was. I then explained how after freenode scandal ppl went to liberachat (which I thought they knew about) but also how many went to matrix. They were looking at me like I was from a different planet. I kid you not, NOBODY knew what IRC was!
I’m 27, there were 50+ year old experienced devs there who had no clue about what I was on about.
I wanted to exchange some ideas with them about open source licences because we all use those npm and pubdev dependencies. I wanted to exchange ideas, hear their thoughts etc.
Guys, this is sad but they all use open source libraries in their work but they have no clue, no concept of open source, free software, they had no idea who Richard Stallman is, the GPL, the MIT, the BSD they all use software under those licenses but have no idea that they even exist.
Honestly, how is this possible?
I felt like a Martian that literally landed from space…
A keynote speaker, a very smart and experienced dev told to everyone that he was using Linux too and then started telling them about his problems with switching the audio device output on Linux and it was something trivial. He complained that Linux was auto switching and he needed to go into settings to manually switch something or whatever. The thing he wanted isn’t standard behaviour on any OS. So I said that Linux is actually perfect for what he wants (a quick access to switching audio outputs) and recommended that he installs an extension and manage that from a tray icon panel and it would be easier than going into settings every time. Then he was like… idk… maybe… it surely won’t do what I want… So I told him, just code your own app, we all do user facing stuff, it should be easy for him. And then I asked what audio server he used and the poor man just broke down with that question.
What I want to say. We are such a niche even amongst the engineers and even amongst the engineers that use Linux. Because most people and engineers aren’t interested in technology at all, they do that work because that’s what they ended up studying. But they ended up studying IT because somebody said that will give them the best chance in having a high salary.
So everything is wrong from the start, they weren’t interested in the technology, they were interested in the high salary. And that’s how they behave till today. They use Linux just enough to do the minimum what they need to do for their job.
I have other interactions with other VERY experienced and even world famous devs who I’ve met personally and their personality is completely tied to a brand they don’t get a cent from. Their moral compass and code of ethics seems to be whatever marketing team comes up with.
I’ve met a 52 yo iOS developer with 2 kids and a very high salary working at night (because US clients) and sleeping during the day for years and years. And she can’t talk to me about her kids with the same proudness and enthusiasm as the one that she projects when she talks about how she owns all the Apple stuff she accumulated over the years (which is just collecting dust now). Honestly I couldn’t believe it. She’s convinced that Swift open source ecosystem is thriving and is much better than Linux and of better quality. She loves gatekeeping and that people need to work hard to get a mac to get into that ecosystem. She doesn’t want it polluted etc…
Honestly, it makes me want to lock myself in my house and never go out. I’m not advocating a lot or I usually just do it when I know that person is in a position of some power like a dean at the University or some big shot in government or ministry, parlament. Then I try my best to convince them of the benefits and getting our sovereignty back from the ToS and Privacy Policies of the various big tech corps.
For me this is not Linux vs as much as it is a freedom, security and political issue. I don’t want my kids to have to accept the Apple or Microsoft ToS and Privacy in order to study IT in school. It would be like forcing a jewish kid to take islamic religion as a subject or vice versa. We shouldn’t be forced into digital slavery then too.
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Since this has morphed from a
thread to a
thread…
I started using Linux on a regular basis when the ongoing and accelerating bloat of Windows started dragging my laptop’s performance into the swamp. Initially, I set it up as dual boot, but went permanent Linux when I realized I liked Linux much better and was only doing occasional Windows boots to install updates.
Other things that have pushed me toward Linux include business practices:
- Microsoft’s former policy of “embrace and extend” regarding standards…remember how many web sites developed using Front Page would only work well (or at all) with Internet Explorer?
- Microsoft’s current practice of allowing those that already have Windows to get free upgrades so that they can get users onto a system that is a steaming heap of spyware unless you negate almost all the default settings (and too many users have no idea).
- Apple’s “walled garden” approach that makes it difficult for FOSS programs.
- Adobe’s move to a subscription model (sorry, I want my images and my editor to live on my computer).
and mis-steps:
- Windows ME
- Windows 8
- Windows Genuine Advantage
- “your machine does not meet the requirements to run Windows 11”
I do still run Windows on my desktop because of a couple of apps I need for my business.
A seldom-discussed advantage to Linux is that, at least in my experience, the quality of answers you tend to get on the web is much better, and are much less likely to be “install and run my utility and you will be fine.”
Circling back to the original topic: choice of operating systems is a personal choice, and many people are deeply invested in the choices they make. In that regard, it’s similar to politics or religion, and I stay away from discussing it unless asked.
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You’ll become a better Dev… 
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That’s a smart approach. No discussion, no conflict. But I can’t help but remember the Dante’s Inferno in which he says that the “Darkest places of hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis”.
With the recent advancements in IT, like ML, AI and such a high-tech solutions being able to further the economic divide greater then ever before. I wonder shall we not speak up? People are drinking corporate propaganda and corporations have became bigger and stronger than most countries in the world. How is their propaganda any different than state sponsored one? With the imminent arrival of VR and a complete shift in lifestyle happening in front of our eyes post covid are we not to put everyone on high alert and notify everyone that we are being led into digital slavery?
I understand that Linux communities might seem self centred and may challenge a lot of peoples beliefs and even identity. And it all seems like it’s for seemingly silly reasons. But guys, we are probably the only community that is uniquely qualified to speak on these very big issues of today. If it’s not yet, it will soon become our obligation to communicate them to the wider audience as we are being led into digital slavery.
You will realise that we are uniquely qualified when you actually speak to other lawyers, engineers, professors, lawmakers etc. and realise they have no idea what they are talking about, they don’t understand the matter at all, completely unaware of anything related to these issues.
People are advocating for all kinds of stuff, save this, save that, while we’ve been letting big tech slowly shape a new lifestyle and a new world with new rules for us but instead of serving us they are serving themselves and their pockets and we have been reduced to nothing more but biological training data generation machines.
Wake up sheeple, if not us then who?
Be annoying, sound the alarm, but do it with sound arguments and class . Make them wanna be on your side of the issue.
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Wow…or we could just all get off our asses and spend more time out in the fresh air actually living and less time masturbating a keyboard… life is way too short. to get all bent out of shape about this sort of thing. If you have a cell phone and a credit card the world knows what you are up to. As long as we have the choice to pick our poison then drink from the cup that tastes the best going down. 
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@KristijanZic your whole post resonated deeply with me. Especially that line:
is so, so incredibly sad. I’ve worked with several such people at several companies. Smart people, but with no interest in the craft of their job. They clocked in, they did their work, they got payed. But they did not read articles about technology, they did not participate in discussions about technology, they did not innovate, and did not grow without outside pressure. I can’t imagine what a terrible slog work must have been for them. At one company, most people were like that. It was terrifying, I quit quickly.
Just yesterday I nerded-out about some programming minutiae at work. It was glorious! Only afterwards did I realize why this moment felt special: one like it had not happened to me even once, at my previous employer.
Not that I’m immune to that myself. I’m a passionate programmer, but only a semi-interested signal processing scientist, and honestly not much of an audio engineer, even though that is what I ended up studying. I found my niche, though, and eventually left audio for good. But through that, I can appreciate how mind-numbing such a situation can feel, even if I personally only felt it in the periphery.
(The other meta-point is that fora are naturally filled with people passionate enough to spend their energy arguing about some topic. That in itself requires deep engagement, and dare I say, nerddom. Hence we are a self-selectingly eclectic group here. Which is wonderful, but not typical.)
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I seem to have derailed the topic a little - it’s the Lounge, so I hope that @betazoid forgives me.
Couldn’t have said it better.
The year of the Linux Desktop is upon us.
In theory and practical terms - yes, totally. I haven’t had a problem since like forever, but I also have no dedicated graphics cards in my machines. Darktable might be changing that. Or not. I am in the midst of turning photography from profession to paid hobby, so deadlines are mine and mine only.
In reality - not even close.
And the reason is in the administration. Running a few Linux machines is okay. But managing a fleet of end-user devices in a professional context is practically impossible. I just got my A grade back for the “Windows System Management” course this semester where we learned about the tools a windows admin uses to keep their company’s systems alive. And boy (or girl) - this is a job I wouldn’t want. Maybe for an insane paygrade. On the other hand being able to dig into your domain controller settings and actually manage, set, rollout and rollback pretty much anything is a tool that is truely unrivaled.
Linux has similar tools for servers but not for the desktop (afaik).
As a medium to large company you want those tools. You have to have them. My wife is the «IT partner» in her department - a connection between the users and the central IT support. A fire extinguisher before you call the fire brigade. And the stories she tells me about how well educated people with academic grades and everything have zero interest to further their knowledge or behaviour make you cringe. Leaving for a break and locking your desktop in an open office? Nah, that’s just too annoying. They all lock their front door when leaving the house. Weird, isn’t it.
“Our” only hope in my opinion - as weird as this seems - is Microsoft themselves. Windows as a product hasn’t been making money for years, the real money is in the clouds. So they absolutely need Linux machines almost everywhere. The WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) wasn’t a happy accident - their own admins and devs needed to run real Linux tools in a practical way.
My guess: there is already a team in a very dark building working on bolting the Windows Admin tools on top of a Linux kernel to create that hybrid OS that can be administered both for the backend and for the frontend. Don’t be surprised if that happens in only a few years time.
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Don’t you think it’s a little hasty to generalize that you’ve developed some kind of allergy against these people you call friends just because they’ve been labeled as “non-linux”?
People, regardless of their label can be kind or nasty. That’s why relationships (i.e. friendship etc.) require work 
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I think that people who are into Linux inevitably become more aware of various issues and how software we use determines what kind of encroachment on our rights we are willing to accept.
To us it is so blatantly obvious that we should not be using proprietary software and that we should make every effort to use FOSS. I’d say that using proprietary piece of software when there is an equally capable FOSS way would be equivalent to doing drugs or abusing medications. You shouldn’t do it just because it’s easy and everyone else is doing it. You should definitely take meds when it’s really needed but as little as needed.
Ask yourself do you still view the same way that friend that got addicted and is telling you how he has it under control how you should chill, everyone else is doing it and nothing bad is happening etc?
Now imagine suddenly being so in tune with all the latest digital rights news, understanding propaganda, social engineering, digital rights and seeing right trough any corporations marketing or legal lingo and bs.
You try to reason with your friend who is giving his every right away, contributing to the problem, getting addicted or emotionally invested into some corporations success, willing to give them much more power because he/she is fascinated by their presentations of “their” work while not understanding what goes into it etc.
After all that if they don’t see your point of view you’ll think that they might be crazy and that there is something wrong with them morally or mentally.
Just like how we tend to think of drug addicts etc. It’s ruining their life and society but they would like nothing more than to legalise it all, they tell you how smoking weed cures cancer and whatnot. Same thing with Apple, Adobe or fanboys.
So I get it when she says she developed some kind of allergy, it is completely understandable. But what we need to be aware of is that we didn’t come to this mindset and moral values over night or over many conversations. We’ve been learning about it and slowly indoctrinating ourselves into the beliefs we have now for many many years.
I’ve been trough this when I was a teenager, kids were laughing at me in school because I was lugging my old chunky dell laptop every single day to school together with books because I didn’t want to submit to using a proprietary OS and tools in school. They didn’t understand that they had any rights. Same thing with teachers. But there is a benefit when you are stuck in the same classrooms for so many hours a day and forbidden to leave and have to listen to a kid complaining or suggesting a FOSS alternative for every single thing we were studying or learning xD. Many kids would go into debates with me and plenty would understand, then a week later they’d laugh at me because after taking all the info in they decide to go with the easier conformist route and they make fun of me to justify their POV. I never took it as a bad thing tho. I wasn’t actually a nerd kid so that might have helped me a bit, I just held strong beliefs. Eventually professors realised that I was doing a better job with FOSS tools than what others were with their Adobe master collection on Windows and whatnot. They used DreamViewer and some bs Adobe framework, I used NetBeans and Bootstrap (at the time when Bootstrap was the coolest thing on the web). They used Notepad++, I was using Gedit with Cobalt theme, they had normal theme, I had dark theme before dark mode was a thing, custom icon packs, boot animation, cool sounds when I was using a backspace to delete a terminal command and reached the beginning of the line xD I’d also make sure to update my system every time trough terminal etc. They had wamp server, I had lamp that I’d install myself. My PHP was always two major versions ahead of the one we were studying so I had cool operators like n** etc XDDD
It resulted in the school admin and a teacher moving two entire computer labs from Windows to Linux exclusively. One was Debian, one was Ubuntu. Suddenly, it clicked for everyone when the same machine was like 5 times faster instead of freezing constantly.
Sorry for the walls of text guys. I’m kinda passionate about this. Or at least it makes me so nostalgic haha
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This is the real world. Yes, you’ll find MS / Apple / FOSS / Linux / web / whatever fanbois but for the most part, for most people, It’s Just A Job. IT is a big world and there’s a lot of technology. Not only is it possible, but it’s entirely likely that someone can (and will) spend their entire career in a specific area and learn little, if any, outside that area. In all fairness, there’s just too much to learn when it comes to stuff outside your area and you’ll stay more than busy just trying to keep up with what you have to do and know. I had very smart co-workers who were totally immersed in Microsoft but had little other knowledge. That’s not to minimize them at all – They just “bloomed where they were planted”. Personally, I was more of a “jack of all trades, definitely master of none”, which was very frustrating.
The “no one knows or is interested about X” argument can go both ways. It may be interesting (or even amazing) that “proprietary folks” aren’t familiar with FOSS tech. But how many FOSS folks have spent significant time in (e.g.) Citrix, Varonis, Solar Winds, Active Directory, SAP, Oracle, DB2, SQL Server… and the list can go on and on. Once again, that’s not an endorsement, just examples.
Back In The Day (… I can’t believe I just wrote that!) for example learning Solaris was a pretty esoteric skill, despite SUN’s significant datacenter / enterprise server footprint. However I had Solaris admin co-workers who were very knowledgeable and skilled in that area but had little to no passion about it specifically. It was just a job, just tasks to be done and Solaris was just the toolbox. And if I’m honest, after being pushed (from *nix) more totally into the Microsoft world I got that way long before I retired.
I have to agree with @priort – Ultimately getting wrapped around the tech axle is counter productive. Getting involved and passionate about corporate behaviors, influences, attitudes, myopia, etc.? That’s a different ballgame but the tech itself is just a tool to get the job done. People are still people.
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Another thought just came to my mind.
We apply our FOSS beliefs in our daily lives or we find parallels with other common situations and apply it. We apply it to be better people, make better choices. Care for others in a better way etc. So a person who doesn’t understand that and does the opposite naturally seems like a bad person.
But I don’t think people who use proprietary software apply that level of naivety in their daily life. I don’t think they are conscious of the potential long term ramifications of giving away our rights, data, money etc to corporate entities even when you explain it. It is so abstract to them, which is fine. It would be like a surgeon trying to explain me stuff about cancer surgery and why we should all be putting pressure on research and funding institutions. Yes, it’s soooo important, but what the hell do I know about that?
So I’m thinking… They aren’t bad people and shouldn’t be seen as bad or less and they might be too set in their ways to learn. So just accept them as they are since changing them won’t change anything anyways. But if you meet a person with some power, educator, politician etc… drill him with a drill of FOSS lmao 
I couldn’t agree more! Well said, all of it.
Tech is tech and people are still people.
< unrelated-tangent >
And we’re a passionate intellectual minority in a world that values comfort and money over freedom and human rights. In every single industry those have been abused, slavery, child labor, you name it. It’s gonna be the same in simply using software and there’s not much we can do but watch people being influenced trough untransparent tech, whole elections and civilisation path being influenced. Future generations will look back at this time in disbelief the same way we look on slavery and child labor (still happening today btw, but out of sight out of mind). They’ll think we sold our most intimate details for an email and an instant messenger account lmao 
</ unrelated-tangent >
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Yes. A big, current issue is that the huge techno corporations (e.g., Google) are scraping the entire web to try to use everything for their AI knowledge bases. And I do mean everything. Even a no content post on Twitter - they intend to grab it all. There is a law suit to try to stop this, but who knows how the suit will come out?
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Sounds like she’s looking for attention, not solutions. Glad you knew the fix, too bad your friend didn’t want to implement it.
I have two friends who are interested in photography. One was a pro who I’ve known and worked with for over 40 years. Great guy, great friend, great photographer. He finally came around to trying lightroom after 20 years of doing everything in Photoshop and Bridge. His process worked for him. Yes, lightroom would have been better. But he’s stubborn. Linux or DT- forget it. I wouldn’t recommend or discuss it with him.
Another friend I’ve known for over 60 years. He’s an amateur photographer with high end gear, fast computer. everything goes through Win/Photoshop. Results are usually not great. He hasn’t got the eye. He hates Windows, hates Mac even more, but can’t stop talking about the wonders of PS. He knows I have moved to DT and LInux, but he won’t even consider trying a different workflow. I"ve told him several times I’m not interested in Adobe world, what I have works, and please shut up and eat your lunch. We get along fine.
I know you mean well, but you need to find common ground to enjoy time with your friends, and if they are close minded about the photography, change subjects. Life is too short!
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Why do I use Linux? With Linux, I can do everthing I need to do and everything I want to do; with Windows or macOS, I cannot.
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I went to an IT networking event (named Beers & Bites held in one company’s HQ), just came back. I can confirm that we’re a niche again. Most conversation was about nothing, so many real estate charlatans trying to get the IT crowd to invest their savings, so much small talk, people with plastic personalities… It feels more like a strategy game than a social event.
I kinda felt like a fish out of the water.
One overarching thing was that people didn’t really share their ideas about tech. Because there aren’t any, it’s work and work is annoying. The talkative ones were mostly self employed contractors thinking they are running a big business.
Nobody really sees the actual value of software. It’s seen trough euros and dollars but not trough real world benefit and change. It’s so strange to see people not realizing that their work might actually matter and be meaningful outside of making profits.
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It’s tough, though. Software is generally so very shoddily built. It’s hard to feel pride for building some boring line-of-business mechanism, ad-scam-website, or blatantly superfluous bureaucracy component. Taken together, these probably make up 90% of programming these days. I’d argue that most software is in fact worthless. And barely functional bug-ridden MVP that never saw much of a proper engineering process due to market pressure.
What I personally struggle with, is how software is so very invisible. You code something cool, and it goes into some corporate black hole, never to be seen again by any human. If you’re lucky, some customers or colleagues get to interact with it at some point, but most of the effort has very little impact. Open Source software is much more satisfying in that way, but it’s hard to earn money with it.
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I agree with the people who advocate non judgemental-ism and not taking ourselves too seriously
open source seems to be a better way to learn IT: working at a more fundamental level without consumerism and it encourages a certain type of creativity I like for similar reasons so even though I’m about getting the best picture possible I will use open source most of the time
I think someone has made the consumerism point but I do like the way there is less waste with Linux and older equipment can be recycled. It is questionable the way that companies in charge do not provide security updates for perfectly good equipment or make older hardware incompatible at a time of environmental crisis . I’m wondering if AI would work with the people providing open source for smart phones. Maybe we have been conditioned into thinking newer, faster, later is always better without realising
I think we had to congratulate Bill Gates on his charity work and good prescient advice on pandemics it might just be an oversight but it worried me that his foundation was supporting copyrighting DNA on seeds in the developing world.
I’m always grateful for people’s generosity in developing open source but appreciate that some people would nearly starve if they didn’t get paid so don’t have a problem with that world
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