Moiré nightmare challenge from hell

After some discussion and kind explanations on the IRC channel, I submit to you, the impossible moiré challenge from hell.

20201213_0022.NEF (29.7 MB)

I tool this picture in Montpellier, it’s the city town building.
I wanted to get out of my comfort zone with some modernist geometries, and once home I notices something very strange in some areas, see if you can spot it:

The whole thing is a moiré festival, but here is a cut of the most interesting part:
20201213_0022_zommed-in

Look in these two areas:

The whole area was resolved to a very strange organized mozaic of different color pathways. VERY artificial looking! And very interesting.

Changing to a demosaic algorithm of VNG4 gave this better result:


(I also changed some other things in the meantime, but they had no effect on the moiré artefacts)

It didn’t get rig of any moiré, but it at least gave a more convincing result in those heavily affected areas. I was good with it until…

…until a friend of mine gave it a shot, fired up CaptureOne, and after 2-3 clics came back with this:

Looks like C1 does have some very effective processing algorithms to deal with moiré. He didn’t even bother using a mask and instead applied the filter over the entire picture.
If you look for it, yo ucan still see areas where it struggled with moiré, but the result is pretty close from perfect.

So now, we know it’s possible to deal with it effectively.
the question is how, in darktable.

We need to act pretty early on in the processing pipeline, at demosaic or right after (or maybe before? Is that possible?)

Here is what I tried:

  • different VNG4 settings, no effect
  • Bilinear denoise (no effect and oh my god it destroys the picture before anyting gets better)
  • Raw denoise (it might have helped, but I don’t see enough improvement to tolerate such damage, even to the most affected areas)

We need something else, there must be a way :slight_smile:

Good luck!

These files are licensed Creative Commons, By-Attribution, Share-Alike.
except the one out of captureone which is not mine but I have permission to post here

4 Likes

Looks like a fun Play Raw.

Damned nice pic! Thanks for sharing.
Where is that? Would be interesting to see the same shot with a cam w/o lowpass filter like D750

What lense has been used? (some of your shots seem to have a lens correction but dt says “manual lense”)

(I am also still struggling)

currently the best I can do is defringe-module with static threshold, edge detection 20,00 and theashold 0.05 together with AMaZE (tried several of its parameters)


20201213_0022.NEF.xmp (19,0 KB) (yes I did it again, nobody shall by motivated by my approach of HLR :stuck_out_tongue: )

I may try further

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Those artefacts look like something I’ve seen with wide angle lenses and over exposure/ flare/mystery.

I dont have a solution in dt but Rawtherapee sorted it with green channel someting something in the demosaic tab. I’m not at my computer hence the imprecise language.

@AxelG
that’s quite a nice result, at least you got rid of the chromatic part.
Maybe I didn’t use AMaZE right, I discarded it early on because it only provided a monochromatic result and… wel… that’s certainly a way to get rid of chromatic artefacts, but that’s a little bit dishonest :wink:

It was taken with a nikon d610 and the (amazing) Nikkor 28mm f/2.8 ai-s at f/4
I was under the impression that fullframe sensors certainly had low pass filters on their filter stack, but now that you suggest the D750 doesn’t I’m confused. Maybe that’s why they are so pronounced with my d610 ?
(EDIT: reading this link, I found out a lot more about moiré and sensors, including the fact that low pass filters are gettink weaker or being removed progressively: Do you think they will make a d610 with no low pass filter - Nikon Rumors Forum )

This is Montpellier’s town hall in southern France, also known as “that hideous cube”.

Very useful to test corner sharpness under extreme conditions, here is another picture of the side of the building on the same day, same lens, at f/5.6

These conditions were really not fair to the lens, but it still managed to get a pretty good result all things considered. The lower left corner tells the whole story :slight_smile:

Back to the subject at hand: I’ll give it another shot in the coming days, you got closer to the capture one result already!

ART with chrominance smoothing

There is a fine structure in the metallic panels that disappears when downsizing:

downsize

original size

Really a nightmare

2 Likes

What a monster! I found IGV, LMMSE and Amaze, in that order, worked best for the moire pattern. Defringe worked well for the moire colour and highlight fringing. With defringe on, I liked LMMSE best. No sharpening, because when I tried it the first time RT crashed.

moire-20201213_0022.NEF.pp3 (11.5 KB)
RT 5.8

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I think that defringing can be a little better than ART chrominance smoothing to keep some brown hues when defringing only the blue hues.
Beyond moiré, there is how the demosaicing method takes care of the fine repetitive structure of the panels. I am not sure which I prefer.
Thanks @koolfy for this very challenging photo.

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20201213_0022.NEF.xmp (8.1 KB)

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moire.challenge.nef.xmp (11.2 KB) darktable 3.3.0+2112~g04713cbba

This was a nice challenge to tackle.

I need to try this one in RawTherapee as well; It might have the better tools to tackle the moiré issue (especially its demosaicing module).

EDIT: And the RawTherapee version:


moire.challenge.rt.pp3 (16.4 KB) RawTherapee 5.8-2721-g77d31aacd

Looks like RawTherapee is indeed better in dealing with the moiré.

3 Likes