Printing: How much of your work do you print/display? In what media?

Lounge
8

I still don’t know anything after reading that. They are also just speculating.

If I want to speculate, I really think that as with all other products, you are paying money for the brand and in the case of printers you are actually paying off the printer by buying OEM inks. It’s well documented that printers are being sold at a loss by the OEM. Sometimes at a big loss. But they count on you buying ink at incredible prices for the lifetime of the printer.

Anything can be reversed engineered, if you’re a no brand ink manufacturer making millions of $ a year how hard would it be to pay a lab to reverse engineer an ink. Probably not that hard.

If the inks are being sold as being a replacement ink for the OEM ink, it must work. Otherwise no one would buy it and they would not be selling it anymore.

If I want to be paranoid, I can always mix OEM and third party inks. And for the printer producing different results than with OEM ink, I can just profile it with a spectrometer and it’ll be fine.

But, all that said, I’m still weary. I’d want to hear the experiences if the third party pigments are really clogging up the nozzles more and if not, I’d like to test myself if the color fades really quickly or the quality is acceptable.

But I think I wouldn’t mind a print fading slightly after like 30-40 years. I think that shows the age and history of the print. Otherwise if prints didn’t show it’s age, there’d be no difference between an old an a new print. One could just print it from a file whenever and everything would be the same.

9

The Epson ink (can’t speak for canon) on Epson paper gives you color fastness and testing. All the Epson papers and inks are rated and will give you a specific life span for your print. I.

10

Colour fastness, etc. is kind of a tricky proposition. You only know once it starts degrading. In the distant past, my dad dabbled in printing. He used the upper end of what we could afford. Now, most of the photos are faded or discoloured. Some aren’t but most are.

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A few thoughts since I’d also be interested in exchanging information on prints here, with a focus on “our” applications (darktable, scribus etc).

First of all, amateur photographer here, for the past few years focused on my family; not fancy or short-term rewarding, but for me vastly more important than everything else – just to mention a name, one of my heroes is Sally Mann.

I use Linux and to drive my Canon Pro-100 (dye-ink) I have bought a Turboprint license. It’s accessible from darktable and the way I do prints are mostly 10x15 or 13x18 and occasionally larger (20x30, ~A4) prints. I don’t have to fiddle too much with the default settings to be hones to have a good and faithful color reproduction. I use original canon inks which I buy in multipacks from amazon (all 8 colors).

For throwaway prints, I use the standard canon glossy photopaper 100 sheets 10x15 pack; I also have a collection of various kinds of papers from Red River Paper, which are all fantastic (and not as expensive as Hanhnemule).

My experience is that for quick proofs and prints, having the possibility to print at home at any time and see the results immediately vastly outweighs the lower costs of cheap prints from a photolab. And the quality is very very good anyway, even on the cheapest paper that I have.

And when I need high quality prints, I don’t have the kind of expertise and experience and knowledge to have identified an exceptionally good and reliable professional printer locally.
I probably need to mention that I live in Milan, Italy, where surely there are high level labs and professionals… but having no affiliation to photo clubs or friends sharing the same level of interest in photography, I always have the feeling of bein ripped off when I occasionally seek an “expert” opinion or service.

So when I need to do a high quality print, I feel like I’m not let down by my Canon, and the fun you have by choosing different papers and see what is the effect on the print is invaluable.

About the reason to print, plenty of people have argued about the importance of looking at physical prints, and I will refrain to do so. I want just to mention that I’m very far away from the idea of prints as something to be put under glass; printing even on cheap paper is a way to judge the photos regardless of the little tiny technical details that I obsess with while pixel-peeping in darktable… it’s a good way to put things in perspective, to let go of the noise, the dynamic range, and all the other wonderful things I aim to get “right” when working in darktable but that are ultimately meaningless in terms of emotions and significance of the photo. Printing a stack of photos is also the best way to build a meaningful sequence (I can’t do that in darktable, but I’d gladly accept any suggestion you may have on how to do that).

Anyway, if we were to put on a printing section of the forum, I would like to discuss about how to properly use darktable+Turboprint, how to use Scribus to build photobooks that can be sent out to Blurb for printing etc (I have followed Andrew Milnor’s advice in the past and have had great fun in making photobooks on the cheapest papers offered by Blurb, just to have something physical to hold; I’m now making a similar book in Scribus trying to setup the pdf layout in agreement with Blurb’s requirements but haven’t done the last step yet – sending it to print!).

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I have been printing for a long time with both Canon and Epson printers. The Epsons are by far the most problematic from the standpoint of nozzle clogging; the Canons I have had can be dormant for more than a month with no problems.

Inks. Expensive. The best I have found for my Canon Pro-100 is made by Precision Color Precision Colors Home Page. These inks are so close to Canon’s that I didn’t feel compelled to immediately redo the printer calibration. They are good. Not sure how durable they are over time but I have prints from years back from another Canon printer with these inks that are still as good as they were then.

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@KristijanZic, that’s a bit of a rant isn’t it?!

It seemed to me there was quite a bit of useful info in there.

Really? Photosynthesis isn’t too easy.

Issues with patents?

Messy business I think. (Did you notice in the dpreview thread those official-sounding bodies who test light fastness)

That’s very naive!

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You didn’t understood what I said. Never did I say it was an easy task for an engineer. I said it would not be that hard for a company making millions from selling third part ink to pay a lab to reverse it. And they would, and it wouldn’t be rocket science to do for them.

What patents? Most third party inks come from China. I’ve just bought a Louis Vuitton bag for my niece from AliExpress for 19$. Give me a break.

Why? Buy some UV lights point them into the image for predetermined period of time and viola, you’re testing. But I’d just put the photo onto the roof of my house or under the sunroof of my car to subject it to some harsher real world conditions. And if OEM ink tests marginally better than the third party. I’d just use the third party ink.

There are so many combinations you can do and test by combining OEM and third party inks too. There must be a reasonable compromise between price and quality. Also it depends on what you’re printing, for which kind of audience and for what price.

You have quoted my words out of context. I’ve explained that if the inks were so faulty, there wouldn’t be a market for them. If there wouldn’t be a market for them then they would be pulled from the market. Why would anybody keep producing pigments that don’t sell? Or why would anybody keep buying pigments that are clogging the nozzles of their printers?
Still, it needs to be tested, but I’m pretty sure in this logic.

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@KristijanZic
I do print but by the service.
I want them to use only original inks. I print on expensive papers with original inks so that after 40 or so years my prints will look as they look now. I pay for quality which I believe is worth it.
You can watch Jose Rodriguez youtube channel where you can find a lot of practical information. For instance to lower the cost of ink he buys on ebay inks that are reaching or reached expiration date. It is the only acceptable way of lowering the ink cost.
From what I read on forums (since I do not own dye printer) OEM inks are not worth the trouble with one exception! Piezzography but this is something completely different than lowering the cost of print.

For proofs and quick checks a friend of mine bought something like epson ecotank. Here you can use OEM inks (it’s not dye printer). Or you can even play with Canon Selphy which is fine for 10x15…

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So basically I’m not talking about printing the works of other photographers or offering a printing service.

I’m talking about printing my own works and selling them to the masses. Like something you would buy in IKEA, maybe even printed on canvas with a simple wooden frame with a print wrapped around the frame and stapled (Idk how that’s called in English).
I would price the images accordingly, like 40eur per one 90cm x 60cm image or 106cm x 60cm image.
If I used OEM inks I’d have to price them at 100eur and up. If I was a well known photographer I might even sell them for 2k-7k each but I’m not. I may have a few great images but I don’t have the name for that price and I never will.

Basically I need a print that is going to sell and that means low price and high volume. People will use it to fill the space with it, not really to appreciate it unfortunately. So if it fades over time, you got what you paid for. If they wanted to pay me more, they’d get better quality. I may want to do a few runs of prints with the original OEM pigments and have those prints in storage and offer it at higher price for those who really want it for its artistic value and to keep it forever. But for every day Joe, only the price, the size and the color palette matters. Not even motive matters to them.

They don’t buy printed photos to appreciate them but because they want to fill the empty wall in their room and the photo matches the drapes.

It’s sad, I’d like my art to be appreciated but this is the reality of the situation. Sell cheap, sell a lot, make something. Sell expensive, sell nothing.

I love that channel! :smiley:

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I sounds like you need a printing service like one which prints pamphlets for your local pizza restaurant :wink:

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Mixing the metaphors: artisan pamphlets for artisan pizzas. :face_with_monocle: :joy_cat:

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Stay tuned, I just bought a set of third party inks from STS Inks in Boca Raton FL for my Canon Pro-1000. I’ll follow up with a report when I start the transition. I used STS inks in my large format Canon 8300 and 9100’s for a while for commercial work with no problems, so I think they will work.

I’m on a Linux system now, and to reach the Canon printer, I have a VM wet up running windows10. Via Photoshop I can run the Canon Print Plugin to configure and send images to the printer. I’ve also tested the Canon Studio Print software to send images to the printer, and that works well, but only for jpg and png formats.

I’d suggest the 80/20 rule when it comes to printing. Select a printer that will do 80% of your work, and send the other 20% out.

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Hm, maybe. That’s not out of the question. But you get what I mean by most people buy prints to match their drapes and not for the print quality. Are they really going to pay for a premium ink? They’ll have the print for a few years and then change the drapes and throw my prints with them right into the trash no matter how good they are.

And please don’t think that I’m being cheap. The average salary in my country is around 600eur per month and with VAT being 25% nobody can afford to give 100eur for a large stretched canvas print. I’d still want to deliver the best possible quality that I can afford at that selling price. I don’t think that’s defrauding consumers, I don’t plan on not disclosing anything. I don’t think anyone will even ask what printer or paper/canvas let alone which ink I used.

You are a god sent!

When or if I get the printer (most likely I will), I’ll try to do one of those seamless KVM setups or trough wine. It should be very hard but possible.

That would actually be the PRO 2100 that I’m also considering since PRO1000 is just a tad bit too small for the thing a wanna do. And I think is easier to maintain the inks on the 2100 since you can buy clear ink cartridges and just turn off ink monitoring. That way I won’t need to buy new chips every time I need to refill the cartridge.

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I live in Poland, not much difference :frowning: The ‘average’ means rather nothing. It’s a lie (off topic).

By pizza pamphlets I mean cheap, high volume printing. You get those quite often in your mailbox. However the quality could be too low. Well it all depends on service and paper I assume.

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It would appear that we are in the same boat. Greetings from Croatia! :joy:

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https://www.stsinks.com/

Keep in mind roll paper printers will require a fair amount of space for handling the larger prints, so plan accordingly. Best of luck!

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Yes, I’m interested in a printer section on this forum. Discussing pros and cons of different papers might be interesting.

I just opened a fine-art print shop myself, using an Epson wide-format printer (A1 + rolls up to 15 meter). I am not sure that using no-brand inks is the right solution for art-work though.

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depends on what services you have available to, but I would think surely in most places the answer is almost never.

don’t rule out looking for a local service that can do the same thing in your new location, they haven’t all shut down just yet, touch wood. I live in a relatively small city and there are two high quality print labs that are very reasonably priced and dozens of cheaper ones. Most will let you have some oversight into what’s going on with your print, and I can definitely say the quality is much better than the online services I’ve tried.

that’s probably one of the most disappointing things with modern printing, my parents have stacks of photo albums filled with 30, 40, 50 year old 6x4’s and most still look great. Then we have inkjet prints from department store type setups and online services that are so faded you can barely recognise the people in them, and they’re not even 10 years old.

I got a big print done for my Mum one year from one of the aforementioned local labs and that’s been hanging in their sunny front lounge for nearly 5 years now and it still looks as fresh as the day it was printed. I don’t think I could have done that at home on my first try, no matter how many thousands I spent on a printer.

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In my limited experience, it is a hit or miss proposition. They are certainly not as consistent as brand name but if you are lucky sometimes they can be better. If you have a shop, obviously, it would be safer to use the tried and true.

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How much printing experts are here? I’m not an expert just a reader. I print not that much and use single printing service which I trust. Tried once other because they offered Hahnemühle papers but the quality was inacceptable.

To go in touch with people who eat their own teeth on printing I suggest to go to the luminosity landscape forum. That is the place you can get reliable information on topic we’re discussing here.