The truth about image editing

It’s lucky that this thread is in the Lounge,
because I have a feeling that it rapidly could transform
into a can of worms, located on a slippery slope
en route towards thin ice.

During my decades at an agency, I commissioned quite a few
photographic Artists, Masters, and similar. They were good
– but few of them did any dark room work [shudder] themselves.
They used underlings for those tasks (with a few exceptions, of course).

Some dream back onto the analog days, but to me, today’s post processing
corresponds exactly to the work of darkroom technicians half a century ago.
If you are skilled, then magic will arise – irrespective of whether you concoct
your own chemical baths or experiment with a LUT of your own.

Have fun!
Claes in Lund, Sweden

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If you like any photographer who is shooting digital, don’t you like their post processing?

I wonder you have seen Harry Durgin’s work? Incl. his latest from Akaka falls (one can find if looking after). You may argue about his tool handling, but what he does artistically is impressive to me.

@paperdigits not necessarily. Things like subject, mood, nerve, composition are so much more important. The final handling of tones, colour, sharpening etc could be so so or even a bit annoying and I might still like the work.

@AxelG thanks for the suggestion. Without detracting from his skill I find the images a bit heavy handed and not so interesting. I was thinking about absolutely best people around type examples. I find a lot of digital landscape work completely unacceptable.

I guess someone whose images just look very good is Bas Princen. At least his commercial work is digital. I come to think mainly of more technical photographers where perhaps subtlety is highlighted. It’s mostly light, expensive gear and just being a good photographer though?

Very different and I’m very much in two minds about such heavy handed pp but as a whole I like his work and the look is obviously a huge part of it. A Magnum photographer these days.

https://www.mattblack.com/

Perhaps to judge pp we need a before/after set of images?

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Wow! Are you sure he only shoots digital? The videos I see online are from him shooting a digital Leica M, but the ones on his homepage look so much like Tri-X shot with a Leica. I am not sure if I’d call this heavy pp in that case. Analog can look exactly like this. (Amazing photography anyway)

https://www.flickr.com/groups/620027@N22/pool/

No I’m not sure but I’ve seen a few videos and photos. Its always been a digital camera in his hands.

I actually do some of my own photos with very high contrast bw and even some ART noise. Mainly when im looking at texture/materiality or I’m shooting in the dark. I’m still ambivalent about it thousands of images later :smiley:

Funnily my main two modes of shooting are the ones I’ve picked examples of. Not surprising that one would do that but I didn’t pick them conciously for that reason. Hmm should probably study them a bit more intently…

I usually don’t post many images because they either show faces I don’t want to spread around or they are/will be used in other circumstances. Your comment made me realize how similar (in style not quality) to my examples my own work is so I dug out two images that hasn’t made it into any other circumstances. The first one isn’t properly worked on but good enough to show here.

Architecture (FF dslr)

Everyday kids shot (Ricoh GRII)

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Oh yeah I can see the similarities! :slight_smile:

In Matt Blacks later work you can see some ‘lightroom clarity halos’. But the prominent ones on his homepage, there I don’t see them. Thank you for that Photography tip, his whole body of work is shockingly good! Like really really excellent.

All of those things except subject are either achieved or greatly enhanced in post, unless one shoots jpeg. Nobody is posting unedited raw file.

Yes is great, very ambitious in terms of visuals, content, and time. Can’t believe his name is Matt Black though :smile: In terms of pp the skin in that bathing photo is very well judged.

@paperdigits I think i kind of covered that in the bit of the sentence you cropped when quoting. To repeat, sometimes the pp is not very good but the work as a whole is great.

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Yes, but what about the times that are not “sometimes?”

Not allways, one of my favorite photographers and that I have also had the pleasure of knowing him and seeing how he processes his raws in real time is Pedro Alcazar AKA “El niño de las luces”

Basically his workflow is open the raw with Canon DPP (with the camera settings), add some extra sharpeness and export, a session of 50 night photographies developed in less than 3 minutes! (not sure if we could call this post processing)

When I think back to my most cherished images, most of them needed very little post processing. The images I process most are often almost-great ones that I try to rescue somehow, but I am coming to the realization that that’s a fool’s game.

Perhaps my time would be better spent on subtly improving my best shots instead of such restorative efforts

As for the topic of this thread, I like the works of Elia Locardi, with his blends of shots across some longish span of time. He is going too far into saturated HDR sometimes, but the time blending is very well done in my opinion. Another one is David DuChemin, with a deft hand at color grading and dodging and burning.

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Just wanted to drop by and say that most of my images are butt ugly. I may have shared some of them. I am not uptight about it though. I have taken good ones as well but they are much less interesting to play raw with. :stuck_out_tongue:

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LOL! :laughing:

I disagree with this. Mood is a large part to do with lighting, and finding the right angle of light. Yes it can be enhanced in post, but it is far more impactful to enhance great light than bland light. There’s a big reason landscape photographers like operating at sunrise and sunset. And composition is almost entirely done in camera. All you can really do in post is crop and straighten - which comes at the cost of resolution - and doesn’t help you find a better angle. Not to mention the impact of focal length, f-stop, shutter, etc…

However to me, both are equally important. I see many talented photographers who’s work I don’t wish to look at again due to their processing. Likewise, I see photographers with excellent processing but bland subjects. The best of both worlds is fairly rare - and no doubt many of us would disagree with each other anyway, due to style and taste differences. My favourite images tend to be shot on autochrome, which is kind of at the other end of the spectrum to the high contrast black and white of Matt Black, or the sharp clean colour accurate saturation you see in a lot of digital. Additionally, most portraits you see shot on that medium were taken in nature or at the least older style architecture, with older fashion, which again, is much more to my taste than grey modern cities and modern fashion. So I see subject and style as equally important, but what we each look for in those areas is no doubt different.

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You may have great light, a perfectly exposed negative, or an unclipped ETTR raw file, but without post that is at least decent, you still don’t have a solid photograph.

The negative is the score, but the print is the performance.

Photography is often stuck in an imitation of painting, at least for the composition and lighting parts, while at the same time, being subjected to a hate campaign directed toward post-processing and alterations. That sounds paradoxical to me. You realize that painting is 100% post-processing ? It’s very fake.

I don’t like lyrical definitions of art. First of all, I suspect the little art education most people have is only masterpieces from schoolbooks, so in their heads, art == masterpieces. Visit any small town museum, you will quickly get a sense that it’s only a survivor bias : most art is shit. It’s still art though. Bad people are still people. Bad art is still art. Art is the nature of the thing, not its property or quality.

Art is whenever a medium meets someone’s intent to produce a result conveying that intent. The medium and the tooling to achieve that is irrelevant. Art and sex are the last things we can do only for the sake of doing it. Everything else needs an external motive, a good reason, sometimes even an excuse.

We can redo pictures in post. In fact, whole movies are done in-computer, so why not photographs ? Who cares what should be done in post and what should be done on stage ? Whatever works… With physically-accurate algos, the light on the scene is equal to the light in the computer, whatever you couldn’t do on stage can be simulated in post. Have you seen videogames lately ? They simulate whole worlds real-time with almost photo-realistic perfection. Plus they have better color management than any photo editing software commercially available.

When doing analog, most of the final rendition (contrast and colors) is imposed by the film + paper combination. You may control the content, but hardly the look. Color film imposes its color signature on you, that is, film manufacturers decide what is beautiful for you. With digital, you get/have to build you very own film emulsion yourself. What an improvement ! You now have full control over the expressive palette. See how movies use color grading to setup a mood ?

Yet photographers are still trapped in endless discussions on what is true photography, or - if I may translate - what sorts of difficulties we may invent ourselves to keep it a difficult thus noble art in a time where everything seems so simple that it may have lost any value.

Well, value is in ideas and results. Use paint, pencils, clay, 3D software, virtual darkroom, whatever, but be aware that it will most likely end up as a matrix of pixels somewhere over the web, so why not take advantage of that in the first place ?

Film is only a look.

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Hear, hear!

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In my opinion in the near future the only art in photography will be in positioning the camera and taking the image: capturing the right moment with the right angle in the right composition.
All the rest will be taken care of by some AI/ML editing software with only user input being the actual image data.

Even if your prediction comes true you still have to pick ai and set some parameters.

Arguably film was equivalent to ai. You had a fixed set of looks that you could print and manipulate with some variation. I don’t think this limitation was particularly bothersome.

In my opinion photography has always been about

All else is at best secondary. You can make a bad image less bad or a great image more great by pp but you cant really go from bad to great. (There are of course very niche exceptions) If you break the bounds of photography you can of course make good art from “bad” photos.

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