Why are TIFs from RT opened in Photoshop with layers merged?

[Thanatomanic (Roel)]

@Eigil_Skovgaard

The fact remains that when a pp3 file is created for a multilayered TIF, the TIF will not open in Photoshop as such but as a flattened version of the original file.

No. Try opening the tif from your operating system, it will still be multi layered.

[gaaned92]

@Eigil_Skovgaard I would like to help identifying some mis conceptions.

@Eigil_Skovgaard

One of them is the presentation of a layered TIF file when opened in Photoshop via the small painters pallet icon in RT.

There is no such "presentation " fonction in RT. nothing is presented.
What is done by the “painters pallet” is to process the input file according to the processing parameters, put the output in a temporary file, launch the external editor with it (GIMP,…).
A PP3 will be saved alongside the input file.
The input file is not processed. the output file is a photo in whatever format you want (jpeg, tiff, PNG)

What you want I think : you view your multilayered tiff in viewer ( but what viewer can view a multilayered TIFF?) and if you choose sent the file to photoshop.

@Eigil_Skovgaard

The TIF is opened with all layers merged into one fixed layer.

I suppose you mean the input multilayer TIFF. As there is NO notion of layer at all in RT and therefore, there is NO merge function
RT opens the upper layer, I suppose. It processes it, displays it and export it in your preferred format (TIFF with one layer).

Remember you are in the editor. What you view in the editor is not a “presentation” but a preview of the output photo.

remark: the tooltip says “edit current image in external editor”. Current image is the output image.

• So it seems you need a SW that can take into account multilayered TIFF, display a chosen layer, edit the layer, export the processed Multilayered as a multilayered TIFF and launch phtoshop.
  Isn’t photoshop itself this SW? or perhaps GIMP

@Eigil_Skovgaard

I don’t expect RT to manage TIFs with layers - but when they are opened in Photoshop, they should behave as usual. To my knowledge all the information is still available in the TIF - UNLESS of course RT strips some information to make the files smaller?

RT doesn’t manage anything. It is definitely NOT a DAM.
RT strips nothing from the multilayered TIFF, it is unchanged and present in the same place.

@Eigil_Skovgaard

but to have RT passing the whole TIF file to Photoshop.

Why you need RT passes a file to photoshop. It is the role of a DAM.

@Eigil_Skovgaard

it should not depend on which app is sending the TIF to Photoshop.

RT doesn’t send anything from the file system. It sends the processed output file. Its’ not a DAM

@Eigil_Skovgaard

but it makes the navigation between RT and Photoshop worthless regarding existing (multi layered) TIFs that already are available in the File Browser.A strange and illogical limitation.

I suppose RT was never envisioned as a post-processing for photoshop although the contrary is true. see @stuntflyer post.
It has to be considered as a raw processor with also interesting possibilities to process demosaiced photos . It not the swiss knife of graphical design
It has no bitmap
capability.

@Eigil_Skovgaard

I am talking about TIF files that are already edited in Photoshop - and you may consider them done

So to get a photo (displayable file) you still need to merge the different layers with specific blending methods. Is it true?

@Eigil_Skovgaard

When RT opens and shows the content of a folder, these TIFs are presented in the File Browser along with the original RAW files - which in my case were edited in RT

What worries me in this sentence is that the file browser never displays the “original RAW file”.
If there is no PP3, it displays the embedded jpg, otherwise a thumbnail of the output file.

@Eigil_Skovgaard

AND IF I should want to reopen one of them in Photoshop (from the editor via the small pallet icon), this operation will not allow me to see the layers those TIFs were saved with the last time in Photoshop.

That is sure and the expected behaviour.

@Eigil_Skovgaard

Yes, and that’s the problem. If I try to “open…” the TIF “…with Photoshop” from the File Browser I get this message “This command requires all selected images to be queue-processed first.”

That is a problem of photoshop. What is the meaning of the error message?
It could mean that photoshop cannot open multilayered TIFF?
RT is not the way to solve the issue.

@Eigil_Skovgaard

I am talking about TIF files initially listed in the File Browser and not yet applied with a pp3 file.

The PP3 sidecar file has no impact, only when you open the RT editor.

@Eigil_Skovgaard

The arrow icons below the Editor suggest that the editor can be used for a one step at the time slide show including all images in the current folder.

There is NO slideshow concept in the editor. I should say it is a film strip.
Each time you select a photo, it is processed in order to be displayed.
You can find slideshow in DAM, for instance BRIDGE.

@Eigil_Skovgaard

a slideshow function - as attempted in the Editor of RT

There is no attempt as there is no slideshow.

@Eigil_Skovgaard

This could prevent me and others to load multilayered TIFs into the editor by mistake

There is no harm. the multilayered TIFF is unchanged

@Eigil_Skovgaard

The fact remains that when a pp3 file is created for a multilayered TIF, the TIF will not open in Photoshop as such but as a flattened version of the original file.

Not sufficiently accurate. You don’t speak about the same thing.
I rewrite correctly the sentence.
The fact remains that when a pp3 file is created for a multilayered TIF, the output TIFF created by RT will not open in Photoshop as such but as a flattened version of the original file.
That is the intended behaviour. The multilayered TIF is UNCHANGED and thus can be viewed as a multilayer file in photoshop.

Conclusion : use a DAM to manage your different assets (photos, internall formats as PSD or multilayered TIIFF, sidecar files, photomontages, slideshows…).
use RT for what it is developped: process raw and photo formats (jpeg, TIFF,PNG)

There are FOSS DAMs also.

[Eigil_Skovgaard]

Dear God!
If you really mean to drown initiatives from your motivated users in this way, RT will never move towards an alternative to the widely used raw editors - and I’ll not waste my time trying to explain what is obvious.

There seem to be a couple of fragile egos in the way for progress here.

[paperdigits (Mica)]

@Eigil_Skovgaard you recieved the replies that you received because you haven’t made it clear that you understand why the tiff file wasn’t layered in your raster editor. But then you tried to twist your misunderstanding into a feature request.

I’m sorry didn’t not recieve a reply you found satisfactory.

[gaaned92]

If it’s an answer to me, you missed the point. I am neither a dev or a present user of Rt.
I just tried to explain and to help, but I see to no avail.
Sorry for the annoyance I caused.

Edit: I took some time, in a friendly manner, to help you. I don’t think I deserved such reply.

Now, As I hope, you understood RT in present state cannot do what you expect, you could clearly and thoroughly explain what is your use case in order that some geek can advise on a preferred Foss SW or perhaps develop a new function…

Best regards

[Eigil_Skovgaard]

You guys and girls seem to be in the need of opponents you can argue with without honestly trying to understand the problem presented to you (I exclude Xavier from that observation).

I am not bored and seeking fights. I don’t need to fight anybody, and I find no pleasure in arrogant misinterpretations to avoid offering a serious explanation. I am asking and looking for solutions!

I will still be using and promoting RT, but after this it has become harder to promise anybody that a real breakthrough that could position RT among known commercial products is within reach in any near future.

[paperdigits (Mica)]

@Eigil_Skovgaard

You guys and girls seem to be in the need of opponents you can argue with without honestly trying to understand the problem presented to you

Not sure we have read the same thread.

@Eigil_Skovgaard

it has become harder to promise anybody that a real breakthrough that could position RT among known commercial products is within reach in any near future

Why would you promise that in the first place?

[gaaned92]

@Eigil_Skovgaard

You guys and girls seem to be in the need of opponents you can argue with without honestly trying to understand the problem presented to you (I exclude Xavier from that observation).

Hey dude, be respectful for the old ones

[RichardRegal]

RawTherapee does not work in or with layers. There are no adjustment layers or duplicate layers with blend modes or anything like that. If you have a multilayered tiff the first thing that RT has to do is internally merge and flatten the layers. Then you make whatever adjustments you please (say some wavelet contrast adjustments. It makes the adjustment on the internal flattened image. You then save the image as a new single layer tiff.

You seem to be asking for there to be some way for RT to be able to deconstruct how the (in my example wavelet contrast) adjustment would look on all the individual layers of the original tiff taking into account the blend mode interactions and then generate a .pp3 (sidecar file) that show the adjustments on a layer by layer basis so that it can then generate a new multi layer tiff.

The alternative would be for RT to be completely rewritten to use a layer model so that it could do the adjustments on a layer by layer basis. That is just not going to happen.

[Thanatomanic (Roel)]

@Eigil_Skovgaard

One of them is the presentation of a layered TIF file when opened in Photoshop via the small painters pallet icon in RT. The TIF is opened with all layers merged into one fixed layer.

@Thanatomanic

Your described workflow would require RT to re-insert the edited image data into the original file, while keeping everything else intact.

@Eigil_Skovgaard I already provided you with the exact solution to solve your feature request early on in the thread. I also explained why this would not be a very high priority change to make (yours is not a common workflow imho).
I don’t know what you expect more from this discussion…

[Andy_Astbury1 (Andy Astbury)]

No raw processor can develop a multilayered tiff because there is no ‘single layer’ it can work on.
Not even lightroom can do it. Lightroom treats mulilayered tiffs as a virtual stamp visible/flatten image product - yes you can add lightroom adjustments to it - but if you try to reopen in PS you can only open a flattened copy or the original layered version with no Lr adjustments.

Raw files are like a cake mix - something you can be creative with. But a TIFF is a baked cake fresh from the oven.
Yes we can process it by adding adjustment layers etc - icing, sprinkles, jam, cream etc. BUT if we forgot to put the dried fruit in we’re screwed - that’s something we needed to do when the cake mix was RAW.

In the Andy Astbury school of photographic workflow there is only one reason for taking a tiff file back into RT - that would be a flattened version of a fully processed multi-layers tiff for upsmpling via Lanczos.

[marter (Martin Werner)]

@Eigil_Skovgaard

The fact remains that when a pp3 file is created for a multilayered TIF, the TIF will not open in Photoshop as such but as a flattened version of the original file.

@Eigil_Skovgaard i tried, but cannot reproduce this. Opening a multilayered tiff in RT will create a sidecar pp3. Yes. Exporting this opened file will create new tiff including a counter in the filename like pic-1.tiff. Its a new single layered file and not the original tiff as long as you dont overwrite the original one.
Of course, Photoshop will open both, the original one (still with multilayers) and the exported one with single layer.
Result will be: you got the original wihthout any modifications and an new file including all modifications as a single layer. Why not put this file as an additional layer to the original?

marter

[Eigil_Skovgaard]

I am aware of that, Andy.

And this is NOT the problem I have been addressing. Maybe my English is hard to understand, I don’t know, but I’ll try once more for you:

I want RT to open the layered TIFs listed in the File Browser - in Photoshop - each time I use the file option “Open in Photoshop”, and this should happen directly without RT changing anything e.g. by creating a new flat copy I don’t need.
Because the layered TIFs, the JPGs etc. already are positioned in the folder RT is reading from (my archive), then - when I want to open the layered or not layered TIF file in Photoshop, it’s just a matter for RT to send a reference link to Photoshop, and Photoshop will load the multi- or single layered TIF and show everything as usual - without involving RT in the content of the file.

I don’t think this functionality should be mixed up with the Editor in RT.
But IF - hypothetically - RT stopped treating loaded TIFs and JPGs etc. as potential objects for adjustments, i.e. didn’t create a PP3 file up front, then with the layered TIF active (referenced) pressing the pallet icon COULD be the same activation of Photoshop with a simple reference link pointing at the original file in the folder as explained above. Adding PP3 files to everything loaded into the Editor floats the folders with useless PP3s. But that’s a separate problem, I have addressed elsewhere.

In the File Browser it should be possible to run a slide show (somewhat attempted in the Editor, but as a unlucky mix) - still based on the files in the original archive folder showing the largest possible rendering of all image files - e.g. to be able to compare prior TIF versions of the RAW file with the current RAW version developed in RT.

An idiot asked, why I would promote RT. Because I find it worth my time. That’s also the reason for presenting suggestions for improvements.

I don’t care about existing technical obstructions - this is my opinion and specification if you like.
As a former system constructor I have learned that the only way to improve is to be open minded and ready to make changes.

[gaaned92]

@Eigil_Skovgaard

this is my opinion and specification

Yes this time, you are explaining what you want in a more positive way.

What you want is a full fledged viewer integrated into RT. It is an extension of the existing inspector which is very basic in RT and more functional in ART.

It should be able at least:

• select a directory
• present a slideshow of all files in the directory to select the files to view
• to view full scale photos jpeg, tiff (one layer), PNG
• to view full scale raws processed with the PP3 sidecar unless the embedded jpg,
• view the raw data with clipped pixels indication
• view full scale multilayered TIFFs (how to do that is to be defined)
• compare above views side by side (function 2)
• zoom
• culling function (tagging, colour)
• select the external editor
• send files to an external editor ( RT editor, GIMP, PS…)
• present histogram, parade, vectorscope, waveform
• display metadata
• perhaps some basic processing (90° rotation…)
• and some other fancy functions I missed

That means integrating something like xnview. That would be cool.

[adrs (Sandy Adriadi)]

I think I understand the problem here (TBH, it’s not really a problem, it’s just the way RT works), this is my opinion after working for quite a long time with C1 and Af Photo with RAW and multi-layered TIFF (i hope it is alright if I mentioned another software here).

In C1, there are 2 commands for opening/sending file to another software,

1. The first one is “Open With…”, this command act like a regular open with a menu in the OS file browser, just sending the file as it is. I think this is the one @Eigil_Skovgaard wants. This is the one I used if I want to tweak the TIFF file, in case I missing something along the way.
2. The second one is “Edit With…”, this is like the RT “Open in [software name]”, it sending the file after being processed, whether it is already edited or not. It’ll always go through the export engine (flattened if it’s a multi-layered file), and append a -suffix to the filename if needed.

As for the PP3 file, as far as I understand, in any RAW editor (even in C1), after you open/import a file (whatever it is, RAW or raster) to the software, it’ll always generate some kind of sidecar/adjustment/thumbs file, especially when the file already opened it the editor. Some software put it in the same folder as the original, some are not. That’s just the nature of a non-destructive raw editor (CMIIW).

So, for the first problem @Eigil_Skovgaard mentioned, I don’t think it is possible to do that in RT as long as it is from the same button (open in [software name]), because that button will always be passing through RT export engine, edited or not. Facilitate two commands in one button will confuse user and the software (maybe). For now, if you want to open the original TIFF file directly in PS without RT doing anything, you have to do it from the OS file browser like mentioned before.

But I think this is a valid improvement for RT team to consider this kind of workflow too. even though it’s quite trivial to open an OS browser and open the file manually, doing it inside RT will fasten things up.

As for problem no 2, I can’t say much because I only used RT/ART file browser to browse the file before opening it in the editor. And if I remember reading from Rawpedia manual, RT/ART focus on being a powerful (RAW) Editor more than the Browser (DAM).

Hope that helps, and I’m sorry if I interpreted the problem wrong, English is not my native language too.

[Eigil_Skovgaard]

Sandy,
You decoded my suggestion in the right way. I have used C1 too, but got tired of the death defying errors.

gaaned92

@gaaned92

Yes this time, you are explaining what you want in a more positive way.

So, now you are issuing character certificates too. What an arrogance.

[marter (Martin Werner)]

@adrs: reading the answer of @Eigil_Skovgaard to @Andy_Astbury1 this also is my understanding of the “problem”. May be, the most of us were confused by the title and thought that editing on layers was requested for RT.
So if there was a option for “open unprocessed in…” this may be could be a sloution for @Eigil_Skovgaard ?

[Andy_Astbury1 (Andy Astbury)]

Ah…now I understand what you want!

Like right click>Edit in>Edit in Ps in the Lr library thumbnail view!

Worthwhile addition i’d have thought

[gaaned92]

Yes it’s the first request. It’ a usual function in a DAM or in a viewer.

A second request is

@Eigil_Skovgaard

still based on the files in the original archive folder showing the largest possible rendering of all image files - e.g. to be able to compare prior TIF versions of the RAW file with the current RAW version developed in RT.

The OP wants also to view the photos full screen and make comparisons.

@Eigil_Skovgaard

So, now you are issuing character certificates too. What an arrogance.

Ah! going back to negative sentences! It doesn’t concern who you are (I don’t mind) but what you write. This is still an example. be positive!

despite some rebuffs, I still follow this thread as I think an integrated viewer/inspector could be a nice improvment. I try to be positive.

[paperdigits (Mica)]

@Eigil_Skovgaard

An idiot asked, why I would promote RT. Because I find it worth my time

@Eigil_Skovgaard

So, now you are issuing character certificates too. What an arrogance

I think we are done here. Civility is required.