I currently use this dev. version of RT:
RawTherapee_dev_5.8-3002-g4d1711412_W64_znver2_210622
and it works fine - except for a few odd behaviors:
One of them is the presentation of a layered TIF file when opened in Photoshop via the small painters pallet icon in RT. The TIF is opened with all layers merged into one fixed layer.
This means that it’s impossible to make changes to prior layers directly from RT and save the result back. This part has to involve either Lightroom or Bridge.
I had never heard of layered TIFF files up until now and this sounds like a Photoshop specific thing. Do you know more about that? In any case, RawTherapee is not designed for such files; RT is not a general raster image processor, and this is very much a raster image situation. Sorry to disappoint.
TIFs are widely used for layered output from Photoshop - not much different from the native PSD files.
I don’t expect RT to manage TIFs with layers - but when they are opened in Photoshop, they should behave as usual. To my knowledge all the information is still available in the TIF - UNLESS of course RT strips some information to make the files smaller?
So, provided the TIF files are unchanged there should be no reason for not passing all information to Photoshop. It’s a rather illogical behavior when TIFs are shown in the File Browser and can be opened in the editor and even edited to a pp3 file.
I stress that this is not a question of editing layers in RT, but to have RT passing the whole TIF file to Photoshop.
Mica
As mentioned - the normal way is to open a TIF in Photoshop with all layers available.
Creating multiple files is a tedious work-around. If I wanted to manipulate the layers I would use Bridge (as things are) to send a TIF to Photoshop. But why can’t RT handle the TIF in the same way. It’s in Photoshop the layers are made visible - it should not depend on which app is sending the TIF to Photoshop.
Currently RT does not directly pass files to an external editor. It loads a file (of course, with some assumptions, one of which is that TIFFs are not multi-layered) and when you press “Send to external editor” it saves the loaded image data from memory to a temporary TIFF file that is opened by the external editor.
Your described workflow would require RT to re-insert the edited image data into the original file, while keeping everything else intact. That goes much beyond the intended use of RT I’m afraid to say.
Probably - but it makes the navigation between RT and Photoshop worthless regarding existing (multi layered) TIFs that already are available in the File Browser. A strange and illogical limitation.
@Thanatomanic, Roel, I must be missing something here. I would have thought that the normal workflow would be to process RAW in RT and then export to Gimp or PS to do the final edits in tif, where layered files are supported natively.
Mica,
I am talking about TIF files that are already edited in Photoshop - and you may consider them done. Now they exist with a number of layers, because the wise author don’t want to miss the opportunity to do adjustments later.
When RT opens and shows the content of a folder, these TIFs are presented in the File Browser along with the original RAW files - which in my case were edited in RT. So I am well aware of what is raw based and what is pixel based.
These TIFs are the refined results of my work in RT - BUT, they still show up in the File Browser - of course - AND IF I want to look at them in the RT editor - AND IF I should want to reopen one of them in Photoshop (from the editor via the small pallet icon), this operation will not allow me to see the layers those TIFs were saved with the last time in Photoshop.
Don’t tell me that to reopen TIFs in Photoshop (or Gimp) with their embedded layers listed should be beyond the possibilities of the good RT developers.
I think the presumptions in this case need to be revised.
Export an edited RT raw file to Photoshop as a tif
Edit the tif in PS with layers
Re-open the tif in RT for further edits
a. RT opens the tif file as a copy showing edits but, without layers.
b. RT exports the tif copy to PS as a new copy, without layers.
So, RT is not opening a layered tif with the original file name and as such will not export a saved layered tif to PS with the original file name.
You can only edit the layered tif in RT as if the layers were merged in PS. So, it appears that moving between the two applications is not going to be a fluid operation whereby the original tif file is being developed further.
Yes, and that’s the problem. If I try to “open…” the TIF “…with Photoshop” from the File Browser I get this message “This command requires all selected images to be queue-processed first.”
This is not usable, when the only purpose with opening the TIF in Photoshop is to examine the status of prior editing, i.e. having the layers listed. I am talking about TIF files initially listed in the File Browser and not yet applied with a pp3 file.
Unfortunately an opening of such a layered TIF file in the Editor immediately applies a pp3 file, and with that the TIF is now deemed a new copy and will open in Photoshop with all prior layers collapsed.
This means that the Editor CAN’T be used as a tool to compare a RAW file with its prior TIF variants the way the arrow icons (F4 and Shift-F4) suggest, as this will turn all prior TIF variants into new copies.
In my opinion this is an unexpected and very unwanted consequence of RT applying a pp3 file to all files as soon as they are loaded into the Editor.
The arrow icons below the Editor suggest that the editor can be used for a one step at the time slide show including all images in the current folder. This is how it works in Bridge (though automated). Nobody expects a slideshow to change anything about the current editing status for any of the files in the current folder - editor or not.
In my opinion a slideshow function - as attempted in the Editor of RT - logically belongs in the File Browser of RT (but is currently missing) - OR the editor must stop creating pp3 files up front and assume that loaded files which are not RAW files remain untouched until “Save as new copy Y/N?” (or likewise) explicitly is confirmed.
you’re right that the Editor arrows tooltips are misleading: where they say Navigate to the next/previous image, they must really say Open in the Editor the next/previous image (which is what they do)
when you open an image in the Editor, it is always processed by the engine («the program») and all settings applied to the original image are saved into a pp3 file. It’s not that RT applies a pp3 to the image
you can imagine a raw file as an input image with 3 layers, one for each RGB channel: when RT opens it in the Editor, it processes all 3 layers to generate a single layer output image that you can see on your display. Same goes for any image with multiple layers: RT process it to generate a single layer image. That’s what it does, as that is what it has to be for a raw file
RT is not meant to replace a full fledged DAM. It has a simple file browser to help you open files in the Editor, among other minor things. That’s it
you can open an issue on github and request that feature there. Then maybe it will be implemented in a future version (just maybe)
Karlheinz,
Yes, but that’s not solving my problem, I don’t want to be without the TIFs, until my new RAW version shows to be competitive (please read my explanations above and below).
Xavier,
I am sorry to hear, that this suggestion to create a slide function in the File Browser in order to be able to compare a RAW file with its prior TIF versions directly in a large format and without changing anything - is not considered interesting. This could prevent me and others to load multilayered TIFs into the editor by mistake (once everybody know the catch).
After all - as more and more photographers find it interesting to test RT as an alternative to Lightroom or ACR, such a functionality is an important competitive parameter, as everybody will be familiar with the similar function in Lightroom and Bridge and most likely miss it fullhearted at some point.
I didn’t know the existence of this barrier until now when finally becoming more confident with RT I recently began to re-edit my older RAW files in RT and in that process needed to compare the result with existing TIFs based on the same RAW files (only created via ACR and Photoshop).
I will not use time on github with the prospect you imply. I must use Bridge parallel with RT - regrettably.
Well, you might volunteer as a developer for multi frame TIFFs … on the other hand, I never missed this feature. And Adobe (or some investors) pay for the development of Lightroom. Everybody here is an unpaid freelancer implementing things in their spare time.
This is not true at all. The multi layered tif file remains unchanged, that’s the promise of a non-destructive editor such as RT. The problem arises when you send the file to an external editor. You’re not using that functionality correctly. It is not a substitute to open that exact same file in an external editor, it is a way to send a processed file to an external editor.
The fact remains that when a pp3 file is created for a multilayered TIF, the TIF will not open in Photoshop as such but as a flattened version of the original file.
I need it to open as is, i.e. as a multilayered TIF.
So, this functionality would logically be a part of the File Browser. If this was possible the current processing in the Editor would make sense too.
Also a slide function belongs in the File Browser and would be very useful.
I am arguing for a RT that supports expected functionality when the more “heavy” photographers begin to consider RT an alternative to ACR, Bridge and Lightroom.
I am not “heavy” - just trying to imagine what will happen.
