Is development really important?

Lounge
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Memorandum

I have lately been motivated to return to the flawless Adobe Camera Raw editor and give up on the interesting editor, RawTherapee, which I have used with some appreciation the last six to eight months. When we - the dedicated photographers and users of image editing software - work out the pros and contras for a product, we develop an idea of what is extraordinary good, what is redundant, what is not so good - and what is missing. I have 20 years of experience as an it developer serving the private sector.
So I optimistically signed up for this discuss forum and expected to join a hall of enlightened minds intelligently supporting the ongoing development of RawTherapee, ART, Darktable, Gimp, etc.
Unfortunately I soon had to revise that image. And I need to warn other serious candidates: Within half a year your patience will be severely challenged very negatively. This forum is dominated by socially isolated types begging for action in their lives. Unfortunately they are overshadowing a number of sensible and knowingly people - including, hidden in the far back - a number of developers who seem to be protecting their creations to a degree that they up front act reluctant to any new ideas not originating from themselves.
But wait, it gets worse - a number of so-called moderators work accordingly to the latest new woke principles by zealously collecting “micro insults” committed by members they feel inferior to. Yes, that’s how bad it is. The mantra is: Don’t think you know more than me - I am chosen to share my nonsense with you weather you like it or not - and I am wearing the moderator hat!
Btw. typically for such characters they hide behind an avatar.
Then, when you finally manage to get into a dialog with one of the real developers, and you are looking forward to an interesting conclusion, what happens? The discussion is untimely interrupted and derailed - for now is the time for the “moderator” to confront you with his list of countless micro insults, things you have said in other contexts - carefully collected in a pedantic effort to seek revenge. If you at that point rightfully tells the Wokes-man that he’s a genuine idiot, he’s all that more delighted to ban you and suspend your account. This at the same time clear the way for his continuing verbal tyranny without interruptions - and apparently with everybody’s acceptance! How the hell can a snake character like “Micro” end up as a moderator? He’s poisonous to the very idea of free speech and friendly interaction.
My experience after half a year with this discuss forum can be expressed in two words — “arrested development!” — and I’m not entirely referring to the software. After such a nonsense trip with a virtual kindergarten, I feel like a child molester! I can only urge well meaning people to avoid this forum, at least while it works as it does right now. Your best intentions to serve the common good with your experience and ideas will typically be met with childish stupidity.
This arrested development phenomenon, which probably also has caused the much delayed release of RT 5.9, has changed my personal attitude as a user too. Now when I know how the creator of one of these raw editors thinks and acts, i.e. like a child protecting his toy - I have become very little motivated to have anything to do with the products from such minds.
That’s why I am dusting off my good old ACR that never failed me. The money was not a problem, the cloud concept was - and is.
Finally - all the weird nonsense from this forum begs for a conspiracy theory:
Why this hostility to new ideas? Why can’t we talk about changes as normal people without being interrupted by fools? What is the idea of meeting incoming good will with obstruction?
The question must be asked: Who would benefit from a situation where an open source product never reached the level allowing it to seriously compete with the corresponding commercial software?
I can think of at least two parties who would benefit from the avoidance of such a clash - potentially including a lot of reptiles in the capacity of watch men. My theory would explain the policing and the forces against development within this forum.
I know - I am a conspiracy theorist, absolutely, but the described agenda has already been confirmed by the actual behavior of the so-called moderators, and such a behavior - to a normal person - very much looks like a deliberate suppressive policy protecting an accepted arrested development, a policy which could! be paying off behind the scenes.

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Thanks for your opinion. It is definitely not my job to moderate this forum but I hope it is OK to write this here because it might help to have an opinion from somebody who is not a moderator. Feel free to remove if not appropriate.
I think you have made the right decision for you.
As a bystander I can see that you will only continue to get frustrated participating on this forum.

Perhaps if you have the time you should have a look at the way that the discussion has been conducted. Again as bystander (not a developer or moderator but a keen user and informal tester of the software) I could see a regular pattern in the dialogue, where every time somebody had an opinion that differed from you, you would immediately hurl insults at them. Almost without fail. Just have a look at what you have written. This really makes it difficult to have a constructive dialogue. Despite that people still tried to help you.

The moderator eventually had to pull you up and I believe this was done in a fair way, in no way insulting you but pointing out what type of behaviour is unacceptable.

As has been pointed out, all of this work is done in people’s spare time, they are just kindly sharing their endeavours for other people. As a result, they will focus on what interests them, and sometimes there may be parts of the software that seem not quite so polished or obvious features missing. Usually this is because they have jobs, kids, elderly relatives etc and all the other stuff in life that means you don’t get round to doing things. When you you consider this, it is pretty amazing what has been produced.

You certainly had some valid points to make, but just think that if you want somebody to give up their free time to do something, then the following tends to work better:
-Suggestions rather than demands
-Not insulting people
-Telling people that the ‘correct way to do something’ (ie how Adobe does it)

Just try and put yourself in their place and thinking ‘would I take time out to do this if somebody asked me in this way’

I have found this forum an exceptionally helpful and friendly place and I have often made suggestions to Alberto who has been incredibly friendly and helpful. I have found that he will do one of the following:
-Implement it at some point (often within a few days)
-Explain that he is not interested in doing it and suggest a workaround.
-Occasionally not get back to me because he is busy which is fine by me
With this friendly and civil way of working I have seen ART make incredible progress over the last few years.

So, like I said we are a friendly bunch. I am sure if you can conduct yourself in a civil manner you would be welcome to contribute to the discussion.

I have tried to be constructive here. If you have a constructive reply to make back that is fine, but please keep it civil.

I wish you all the best.

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This is great but we are talking about open source software that you are given the privilege to have access to. The developers have zero obligation to do anything that they are neither interested in or inclined to do…the fact that they interact and cater to anyone is a bonus…this is not a commercial product…

Diatribe to follow…yada yada

Sorry you really need to get off your autocratic high horse and look in the mirror. The guy you see there is the only one that gives a shit about your singular opinion or analysis of this group and their skill and intensions. Who are you to decide the status or value of anyone. You pretty much define what it is to be a troll…Your post really has no purpose other than to give you a forum to extend your verbal masturbation’s and jousting with well intentioned members of the forum…

Sorry guys the best response to this is no response but this guy is some piece of work.

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You are way to kind…

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@Eigil_Skovgaard Okay, there are interesting arguments here, worthwhile of discussion. So let’s go.

First, regarding the software. My guess to the cause of your frustration is that you had wrong expectations from the start. Please correct me where I’m wrong, but I think this is very typical:

This is the crux: no developer of RawTherapee (nor ART, nor darktable, if I presume), is intending to compete with commercial software. Read that again, please, because it is vital to understanding why “we” act as we do. We are merely trying to develop a piece of software that does something very well. If users think it is valuable for their purpose then we’re happy. We could not care less about market share, nor trying to be as good as any commercial party. There is no business plan, no PDCA, no shareholders, etc. It’s Just Good Software™ that “we” like making and some people might like using.
This idea is complemented (or even driven) by the way our projects work: we’re all unpaid volunteers and anybody can help out. Do you want to contribute code? Go ahead, we happily accept pull requests for RawTherapee. Do you want to contribute documentation or make tutorials? Same thing. Do you just want to test functions and find bugs? Sure, that’s what this forum is for (and GitHub). Do you have great ideas but cannot code? Ah well, there things get a little murky.

Do you want to just bring up new ideas for improvement? Great, new ideas are always welcome – really, they are! However, if you understood my previous paragraphs, it should be clear that if you’re not directly contributing yourself, you have to deal with the available developers and their judgment of your ideas. These are the people that know the project and know the difficulty level of the work involved with bringing your ideas to life. And since they are voluntarily contributing code (= time and effort) to the project, it is only them that can decide whether they want to spend their personal time on coding these ideas. Knowing this, could you accept “no” or “not now” for an answer?

Second, there is something to be said about communication. I already explained to you in a private message what my point of view is regarding my own position and attitude towards the community and the RawTherapee project. If you do not understand me, or really think I have things backwards, I’ll never shy away from a talk. I’d like to think the same goes for many other members on this forum too.
So far you have only replied with anger and accusation. You have not (publicly) tried to understand the viewpoint of others. Any chance for a positive outcome quickly vanishes then.

As for how you were treated by @paperdigits , I would like to quote what I also send you in private:

(…) I strongly believe that if you have a personal quarrel with Mica, you should talk to him in private first. Public accusation is very much frowned upon (and not in the spirit of the rules of this forum). If you can’t come to a mutual understanding of how to keep going forward, you can always contact another admin.

You are on a public forum with a very accepting and broad-minded crowd - at least that is my impression - but there are still rules as to what you can and cannot do. And yes, the moderators and admins are the judge of that. There are proper ways to complain about that and publicly nailing somebody to the wall is not one of them. Nor is berating people as being “socially isolated types” acting with “childish stupidity”. If you cannot abide by this “tyranny”, you should, indeed, leave.

(Edit: edited a few phrases)

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@Eigil_Skovgaard

I’m only technically a moderator (never asked for the privilegies, never used them), but as this showed up in my inbox, I had to review the thread in question.

What I think we have here is a mix of two issues ­— a cultural clash and an attempt to push Pixls towards Reddit-like discussions. We can have a sensible conversation about the former, but I don’t think anyone here would appreciate the latter.

So if you disagree with the culture where volunteers are entitled to calling the shots on design decisions and if you gravitate towards aggressive conversations, you will find Pixls an inferior platform to talk to people. Fortunately, there’s an abundance of platforms where you might feel right at home.

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Hello Eigil,

Thank you for your memorandum … I do not follow the RT threads, so I was not aware of you until you posted in the lounge.

Having read the two threads in question as well as this one, I do need to agree with the general sentiment expressed by others here … that pixls.us is largely supportive, courteous, and, above all, community. A community, by its very definition is concerned with the well-being of all its inhabitants.

One of the characteristics of community is that we do not always agree with one another on everything. We can misunderstand, or have genuinely conflicting points-of-view. What makes community special, however, is that individual disagreements never prevent the ongoing community. I am a Lutheran Pastor here in Australia, and I have just this week been preaching on a verse from Saint Paul (Ephesians 4:32) which may be summarised as: Be kind to each other, compassionate, and forgiving, remembering that you, too, have been forgiven.

Really, that is all that the moderators and the “rules” of our community are asking. When I do the wrong thing on this forum (and I have, in the past), and that is pointed out to me, I will strive not to repeat it. Where there is misunderstanding, let us seek to express with clarity what we are trying to communicate. Remember also that for many here, English is not their first language. Moreover, some part of society (and me at least on this forum) are on the Autism Spectrum, and do not read “between the lines” very well, if at all.

Though you could take @prokoudine’s suggestion and search elsewhere for discussion, suggestions and feature-requests are never a bad idea. Just remember the reasons already given why the implementation of these may not always happen.

We would be poorer as a community if there were not a wide variety of opinions: every member has a different set of go-to software. Some developers on github and here would possibly like to “compete” against commercial software, but I cannot say who they might be. However I can say that developers in our community are willing to listen and to respond. Though their response may not always fit in with your preferences, you are certainly free to change to different software that meets your needs.

So, please keep expressing your thoughts and opinions and feature requests. Please be kind. Please forgive the offences you feel from members of our community, and please graciously consider how you might help make our community better than it already is.

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This guy comes from nowhere, feels superior and entitled, is rude and blunt, always write in a negative manner. I suspect he is a trolling teen-ager.
I hope post of @martin.scharnke will change his mind.

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Well, you were the one who called yourself a moderator - Can that title mean anything else than - moderator? - i.e. an experienced sane individual who will moderate in cases where things get fucked up for real. The only examples of corruption and derailing are from your hand.
Of course that comment where you claimed to possess such extraordinary skills disappeared within a minute - very appropriate. Was it manipulative or just wishful thinking?
I was banned twice for calling you “names”, though it’s an interesting fact that the cause will last for the rest of your life.

And to those claiming to have contacted me in private. I have not received such messages if we are talking writing to my private mail address. Then you would have had my answers for sure.

And I can see that the official written goal for developing alternative free source has just been found, dusted off and repeated. What else can you say - not much.

I am pleased to say that my opinions stated in my memorandum above are shared with other seriously working photographers. You can’t ask for more.

Now back to Adobe Camera Raw.

Masking brush in ACR
Masking brush in ACR256×1251 36.3 KB

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I did get your answer.

image
image693×1173 78.7 KB

:man_shrugging:

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Roel,

So, you call that private mails, when it’s still a thread in this forum. Nice. I see.
For the sake of my integrity I would never regard messages from you to be private or sincere.
I simply don’t trust you!
And for that reason I expected everything you wrote to be a public matter. And it finally became.
I can’t use your false kindness and moderation.
That’s why I raised (raise) my index finger - symbolic of course.

You are welcome.

And I don’t share your religion. Please don’t include me in your flock.

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Ödmjukhet är en dygd. Tycker du verkligen dina kommentarer är okej?

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SĂŚt dig ind i ĂĽrsag og virkning, Peter.

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Private messages look just like normal threads, but they are not readable by others.

In any case, working with open-source software developers is a bit like herding cats. You can’t merely tell them what to do and why it’s better, you have to motivate them, otherwise they will dismiss your suggestion.

Insulting them or their work is counterproductive, so… simply don’t do that.

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CarVac,

Private conversation with an avatar has nothing to do with privacy or confidence. If you don’t want to reveal your true face, identity etc. you are just another number from the internet.

And btw. you don’t need to explain obvious technical details to me.

If images and explanations are insufficient as motivation - then maybe other considerations are blocking the dialog. The fear of admitting shortcomings in the functionality of your creation for example? - or admitting you are unable to design or code certain features?

is it an insult to point at the advantages of generally accepted functionality not found with the creation at hand?

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Although I hide myself behind this groking avatar, I’m at your disposal to talk to you face to face, via whatever video meeting platform you may want to use, and try to explain some things that I see you don’t understand.

Just send me your phone number, or anything else that put us face to face. (In a private message, of course).

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Gadolf,

I don’t need your “private” help. I have the private supporters I need.
You are simply an entity on a forum on the internet - it can’t get more impersonal.
But you could shorten that distance by writing under a picture of yourself and reveal your true name. Why is anonymity the generally accepted way to meet others here?
I would be more confident with your appearance and could get an impression of your personality if I could relate to a well exposed portrait and a real name - and you would probably act more like your true self.

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Sorry, you don’t get to choose how others behave or want to represent themselves. That’s no different in real life than it is on the internet. For all I know you are actually Queen Margrethe. The only thing you need to trust in, is that people want to have civil discourse with each other. For the rest, you can just look at how people behave to judge whether you like them. And well, it seems you’re good at that.

In my case, despite my best intentions and good faith, and continuous attempts to keep a constructive and open dialogue, I seem to have gone over to the dark side from your perspective. Very little I can do to change that, so I’ll be moving on. You probably like that better than my continuous replies anyway :roll_eyes:

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He’s just a troll, stop giving him the attention he so obivously desires.

Ignore him and he’ll hopefully just go away. He doesn’t like it here, anyway.

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Absolutely, Roel.
But can I trust that you will stay out of my sight and never bother me again with yourself-righteous style?
Hardly - your word is not really solid.
But just before you leave: If I am the queen of Denmark to you, then my guess for an alter ego for you would be Joe Biden. Another man without a clue.