Filmic is doing two things.
The graph shows one of them (the tone mapping), which can be neutral.
The other is a log transform, wich cannot be neutral. Unless there is a value n for which x=log_n(x).
As a result, the filmic module as a whole cannot be neutral…
1 Like
Ok I understand your concern now. The confusion comes from the fact that filmic was never intended to be a simple tone mapper by architecture. The idea was not simply to make a “neutral look”, but to: “Remap the tonal range of an image by reproducing the tone and color response of classic film.”
That means you already get a look adapted to human perception, in fact like a substitute for “base curve” with functionality of a tone mapper, in a linear color space.
So, if the conditions are right, you can already get very good results with Filmic, without doing much afterwards. But in extreme situations, for example when the dynamic range of the photo is very high, the results are not always satisfactory and you can use it more as a tone mapper and then “beautify” the photo with other modules.
But the problem is - and that’s why it comes to the confusion, that this separation is not easy to understand; when do I use it creatively and when rather only as tone mapper because both is possible. You just have to try it out. If you are not sure, you can always use it as a tone mapper and that’s it.
3 Likes
You won’t get ‘neutral’ unless you set the white point to 2.45EV (since mid-grey is 18%, log2(0.18) = -2.45. (100% is a surface that reflects 100% of light in a diffuse fashion; specular reflections and light sources will be above 100%.) Download my module preset posted a few posts above; then import it into darktable.
1 Like
As I read the multitude of threads about filmic I wonder if people really understand what filmic is. Maybe it should have been named “A really good tonemapper with lots of options”, but that wouldn’t have fit in the title bar as well as “filmic”. It’s a tonemapper. I don’t think there will be a Play Raw thread about just using multiple instances of filmic to process an image.
To me there are 3 ways to use it:
-
Put it at the end of the processing pipeline and let it map your wild and crazy edit into something that is not overexposed or underexposed.
-
Use it in the middle, to get your image to a starting point for artistic edits.
-
Use one instance in the middle for a starting point and another at the end to map it into display space.
Personally I use 1 most of the time, and 2 the rest. But whichever way I use it, I tend to set it and forget it. Just because there are lots of sliders, tabs, and drop downs doesn’t mean you have to touch them or use them. Where all of those options come into play are on the really difficult images, such as the play raw of the church with the window exposed correctly and the church almost dark. Or, the play raw of the girl in the swimsuit with the sky and her shoulder blown out. If you want to play with all the settings, use the Play Raws and pick the difficult images.
Now I have a question/thought. Filmic defaults to ~12 EV of dynamic range. On a good day, if I hold my mouth right, I can almost get 12 EV of dynamic range from my camera at ISO 100. But, I shoot sports so my shutter speed is high, and the lighting isn’t always the best so usually my ISO is high. The higher the ISO goes, the less dynamic range of the camera. So, at ISO 2000 I’m down to 10 EV, ISO 5000 9 EV, ISO 10000 8 EV. What I’m wondering is should my filmic dynamic range setting be approximately the dynamic range of the camera at it’s ISO. What brought this thought on was that I find myself compressing the dynamic range of the higher ISO shots to get the shot to look as I “remember” it. To that end I’ve created a set of presets that are automatically applied based on ISO and camera. If my thinking is correct, this should give me a starting point closer to the scene as shot. I just did it yesterday, so I really haven’t had a chance to test it yet.
3 Likes
Bill, I’m curious, do you then use a gamma=1.0 profile to export to a file?
Oh ye of little faith! 
@s7habo is not afraid of multiple instances of any module, including filmic.
(OK, it’s not a thread just about using multiple instances, but still.)
2 Likes
Display space wasn’t really the correct term. I meant map it back into the space between under and over exposed not do what the output color profile does.
1 Like
No worries, I’ve recently spent time sorting through the tone contributions of the pipeline, and I think the display/export transform is sometimes forgotten…
That is how I learned to use the Tone Equalizer, somewhere. I constrain the mask to a range of approximately -7 to -1. Then, when I’m making tone adjustments, I make sure I don’t adjust any points outside that range. Maybe my thinking is messed up, but that’s how I’ve come to understand it.
1 Like
Sorry for my late answer. I tried your preset it but it did not change much. Thanks anyway 
.
That’s the point.
To talk in a picture: See editing software as a house and every room in the house closed with a door and filled with a result of an editing process step.
If lightroom’s house contains a thousand doors, darktable’s house contains a million. And there is another difference: The access to the chambers in lightroom’s house is more restricted. A lot of the doors simply cannot be opened because out of adobe’s intent they lead to unusable results or produce side-effects. In darktable’s house almost every door can be opened. It takes some time to open all the doors and find out which of them contain something useful. This makes it so difficult for a new user to get dt running.
What dt (and maybe filmic in particular) needs is a sort of map or guideline to find the useful chambers. The “quick access panel” of version 3.5.0 is a step in the right direction here.
And discussions like this one 
.
2 Likes
Hmm, it should have brought the brightest points close to clipping. Could you please share the raw?
To take up your metaphor, I will rather say that the rooms should not be restricted, but perhaps better labeled at the door. Because there may be a risk of not getting useful results due to a lack of knowledge, that doesn’t mean that we should restrict the functionality.
That is a good point and exactly there I expect you - if you have understood it and have appropriate practical experience - to actively participate in making the clear and understandable instructions and guidelines.
Unlike Adobe, which pays entire teams of professionals for this purpose, free software like darktable is dependent on the participation of its users.
The sad thing is that so far this has been rather poor. Many can’t manage to leave their consumer role with corresponding expectations instead of investing the time and effort to improve the usefulness through better documentation, translations, tutorials, etc.
3 Likes
May I use your raw file to demonstrate some aspects of working with filmic?
die Breite lässt sich nur bis 50% einstellen
That does not seem to be using my preset: your black relative exposure was set to -3EV; your display/target black luminance was set to 0.0152%, not 0%. Those two meant that blacks were crushed.
Without filmic:
With filmic, using my preset (split view):
Not identical, but close to ‘neutral’.
2 Likes
Yes, of course !
1 Like
This definitely looks better. Maybe I messed up with the preset? I imported it as a style and then applied it.